Is This Ich?

[tmRoth]

The RG is awful thin. I would realistically not be optimistic...

Sorry for your troubles, ich just wiped out all 4 of my fish in a 25 gallon.

It's been eating well for the last two weeks, though - until yesterday. But I was thinking the same thing when I saw it from the angle it's in now.

 

[tmRoth]

10 gallons is pretty tiny for a RG and a 6 line.

But how would that cause the RG to suddenly stop eating and go into hiding? If tank size led to a problem, wouldn't you expect a gradual decline rather than going from active and eating to the current condition in a period of less than 10 hours overnight?

 

[C4ctus99]

I don't think so. The RG and wrasse were in the QT for 14 days with no issues. Both were active and eating well. No aggression from either one, other than the RG making a big show with the mouth when the wrasse got near his hideout. At first they would hide whenever I came near the tank, but over the last week the RG wasn't afraid of me at all and came to expect food whenever I lifted the lid of the tank.

This came on very suddenly overnight. Tuesday evening both were swimming around and eating, Wednesday morning (yesterday) the RG was hiding beneath the filter sponge, just darting out and right back in a few times during the day. Now today it's been hanging vertically in the cave all day.

Gotcha, missed that it was already at 14 days

But how would that cause the RG to suddenly stop eating and go into hiding? If tank size led to a problem, wouldn't you expect a gradual decline rather than going from active and eating to the current condition in a period of less than 10 hours overnight?

There was a guy who lost a yellow tang possibly to keeping it in a breeder box too long, I’ll find the thread. It was fine for 3 or 4 weeks then suddenly became lethargic and stopped eating.

Edit:

New Tang Behaving bad

Hello all, I bought a biota yellow tang from my local dealer, he was extremely small when i got him. I have had him in an acclimation box for abought a month now in the tank. The dealer quartintines them for me. He has eaten every day and has been getting more and more daring every day. i was...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[tmRoth]

But how would that cause the RG to suddenly stop eating and go into hiding? If tank size led to a problem, wouldn't you expect a gradual decline rather than going from active and eating to the current condition in a period of less than 10 hours overnight?

Also, in case you were referring to the tank size in terms of long-term - the 10-gallon is just for quarantine, after which they would move into a 10-year old 90-gallon tank with a pair of clowns.

 

[jabberwock]

But how would that cause the RG to suddenly stop eating and go into hiding? If tank size led to a problem, wouldn't you expect a gradual decline rather than going from active and eating to the current condition in a period of less than 10 hours overnight?

Stress. Small tank, competitive 6 line. Lowers immunity, ich takes hold. In my 25, the RG was the bully, got itself so stressed out, it was the first one to manifest symptoms. So dominant with food and space it was the last one to die.

I don't "expect" any results with keeping aquaria. There are a million variables.

 

[tmRoth]

Stress. Small tank, competitive 6 line. Lowers immunity, ich takes hold. In my 25, the RG was the bully, got itself so stressed out, it was the first one to manifest symptoms. So dominant with food and space it was the last one to die.

Do you think it's too late to move them into separate quarantine tanks until I can put them into the 90-gallon reef, which is loaded with rock and has lots of tunnels and hiding spaces? Now that you have me thinking along those lines, perhaps there was stress that I didn't realize was there. Just before this started that the RG was trying to steal the wrasse's cave rock after the wrasse had claimed it for nearly two weeks. Maybe there was more going on than I realized even though I saw no outward signs of aggression like chasing each other other or fin nipping. I'm feeling like a fish psychiatrist here, trying to interpret their feelings!

The RG is in the smaller of the two cave rocks. The wrasse still has the larger one that it claimed two weeks ago, but now the wrasse keeps swimming through the RG's cave rock, so that could be another stressor.

I don't "expect" any results with keeping aquaria. There are a million variables.

I've done freshwater for 35 years and reef tanks for 15, so I can't argue with that.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I've treated with Coppersafe to 1.77 ppm (per Hanna tester) and will raise to 2.0 tomorrow (because of the wrasse, I'm following the suggestion made by @vetteguy53081 in this thread but I'm open to other recommendations). I added the copper in 1ml increments over three hours to acclimate.

Wrasse is doing fine, active and still eating, but the video below shows what the royal gramma has been doing all day - hanging vertically inside his ceramic cave rock. He's not breathing fast, but is lethargic, not responding to the flashlight when I shine it on him. If you look closely, there's a spot at what I think is the anus, and I'm wondering if maybe something is wrong other than ich - internal parasites, maybe?

Do not ramp, but rather get to the treatment level which is allowing any cysts or other stage parasites to reproduce.
The rectal spot does not appear to be prolapse but fish is also thin suggesting it may not have been eating for some time. The lethargic behavior can be flukes with the breathing and loss of appetite but dont see enough symptoms to confirm that

 

[C4ctus99]

Do you think it's too late to move them into separate quarantine tanks until I can put them into the 90-gallon reef, which is loaded with rock and has lots of tunnels and hiding spaces? Now that you have me thinking along those lines, perhaps there was stress that I didn't realize was there. Just before this started that the RG was trying to steal the wrasse's cave rock after the wrasse had claimed it for nearly two weeks. Maybe there was more going on than I realized even though I saw no outward signs of aggression like chasing each other other or fin nipping. I'm feeling like a fish psychiatrist here, trying to interpret their feelings!

The RG is in the smaller of the two cave rocks. The wrasse still has the larger one that it claimed two weeks ago, but now the wrasse keeps swimming through the RG's cave rock, so that could be another stressor.

I've done freshwater for 35 years and reef tanks for 15, so I can't argue with that.

Maybe pulling out the sixline would be safe? Shouldn’t stress the RG too much I would hope

 

[tmRoth]

Do not ramp, but rather get to the treatment level which is allowing any cysts or other stage parasites to reproduce.

Raising from 1.77 to 2.0, which you recommended in another thread that was discussing a wrasse - unless you think the six-line can tolerate something higher.

The rectal spot does not appear to be prolapse but fish is also thin suggesting it may not have been eating for some time. The lethargic behavior can be flukes with the breathing and loss of appetite but dont see enough symptoms to confirm that

Two weeks ago I treated with General Cure per package instructions (48 hours between doses, partial water change & carbon 48 hrs after 2nd dose). I can repeat if you think that flukes may have survived that treatment.

EDIT: Regarding eating, I definitely observed the RG consuming flakes and brine and mysis shrimp up through Tuesday evening. But maybe not enough?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Raising from 1.77 to 2.0, which you recommended in another thread that was discussing a wrasse - unless you think the six-line can tolerate something higher.


Two weeks ago I treated with General Cure per package instructions (48 hours between doses, partial water change & carbon 48 hrs after 2nd dose). I can repeat if you think that flukes may have survived that treatment.

More effective with flukes if present would be PraziPro. While I am not a fan of mixing meds, Prazi can be used along with copper But prazi reduces oxygen and appetite so assure air stone is used and monitor ammonia level with a reliable kit- not a badge

 

[jabberwock]

Maybe pulling out the sixline would be safe? Shouldn’t stress the RG too much I would hope

I agree with this.

 

[jabberwock]

Do you think it's too late to move them into separate quarantine tanks until I can put them into the 90-gallon reef, which is loaded with rock and has lots of tunnels and hiding spaces? Now that you have me thinking along those lines, perhaps there was stress that I didn't realize was there. Just before this started that the RG was trying to steal the wrasse's cave rock after the wrasse had claimed it for nearly two weeks. Maybe there was more going on than I realized even though I saw no outward signs of aggression like chasing each other other or fin nipping. I'm feeling like a fish psychiatrist here, trying to interpret their feelings!

The RG is in the smaller of the two cave rocks. The wrasse still has the larger one that it claimed two weeks ago, but now the wrasse keeps swimming through the RG's cave rock, so that could be another stressor.

I've done freshwater for 35 years and reef tanks for 15, so I can't argue with that.

As someone else suggested, pull the six line, let the RG stay where it is.

 

[SlugSnorter]

I actually have a possibly relevant question. I have had 2 separate fish now that I brought home that seemed to have major stress issues and behaved similarly to how your RG is. They would hide, never any heavy breathing but obviously stressed, not eat much if anything at all, and die within a week. I’m beginning to wonder if it is an environmental adaption issue, it sounds very similar to what your RG is doing though, almost like an anxiety or panic freeze up response. Is it possible your RG is having something similar?

Neither of the 2 fish showed any signs of illness, so it may be totally unrelated, just figured I’d ask the question just in case

thats a whole other set of things to look into - I would say to make a new thread

 

[tmRoth]

The wrasse is handling the Coppersafe well - very active and eating. Copper is at 2.02 (I was almost spot on with my dosing calculation).

The RG is mostly hiding out in his cave rock, hanging nearly upside down, but a couple of times he swam around inside the cave and stuck his head out a little bit. The wrasse doesn't seem aggressive (to me anyway), but as soon as the RG sticks his head out, the wrasse swims by and the RG goes back inside and plays dead. I'm thinking @C4ctus99 may be right about stress. If the RG still seems threated today I'll move the wrasse into a new QT for the remainder of their quarantine period and see if that get the RG out of hiding.

 

[SlugSnorter]

The wrasse is handling the Coppersafe well - very active and eating. Copper is at 2.02 (I was almost spot on with my dosing calculation).

The RG is mostly hiding out in his cave rock, hanging nearly upside down, but a couple of times he swam around inside the cave and stuck his head out a little bit. The wrasse doesn't seem aggressive (to me anyway), but as soon as the RG sticks his head out, the wrasse swims by and the RG goes back inside and plays dead. I'm thinking @C4ctus99 may be right about stress. If the RG still seems threated today I'll move the wrasse into a new QT for the remainder of their quarantine period and see if that get the RG out of hiding.

You should probably continue to treat the wrasse in the new QT

 

[C4ctus99]

thats a whole other set of things to look into - I would say to make a new thread

Yeah, the symptoms were very similar, except mine started immediately in both cases and his started after 2 weeks. I’ll make another thread about it later

 

[tmRoth]

You should probably continue to treat the wrasse in the new QT

Yes, I was going to move half the water from the current QT to the new QT, refill both with new saltwater matching the current copper level, then let both finish out their 30 days of treatment.

@vetteguy53081 mentioned the possibility of flukes, but I'm going to hold off on the Prazipro unless the RG fails to become more active when separated from the wrasse or displays additional fluke symptoms.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Yes, I was going to move half the water from the current QT to the new QT, refill both with new saltwater matching the current copper level, then let both finish out their 30 days of treatment.

@vetteguy53081 mentioned the possibility of flukes, but I'm going to hold off on the Prazipro unless the RG fails to become more active when separated from the wrasse or displays additional fluke symptoms.

Do Not use tank water for QT. If there is present issues/protozoan/etc in the tank water, you are merely transferring it over to a sterile QT tank

 

[tmRoth]

Do Not use tank water for QT. If there is present issues/protozoan/etc in the tank water, you are merely transferring it over to a sterile QT tank

Good point! I was trying to reduce stress on the wrasse by not having to go through acclimation for a new tank, but I see what you're saying. I'll set up a clean QT with copper at the same level as the current QT, then move the wrasse into a smaller container and do a drip acclimation. The RG will stay in its current tank.

 

[jabberwock]

@tmRoth
Howdy neighbor, I see you are in Atlanta, I am up here in Woodstock.

Looks like you are getting some decent results.