Is this the correct level?

[Ron Reefman]

Thanks for the info Ron,
How do you know how much return volume you are getting. I have just been adjusting mine to the maximum capacity to the overflows AND keeping the return inlet sump area 1 inch above the return pump inlet.

When I was water testing my tank out on my driveway, I ran water through the weir as fast as it could go. Over filling the tank slightly. And then measured the number of gallons I collected in the sump after just 1 minute. I did it 3 times to be sure and all 3 were close together at about 15gpm.

 

[Idoc]

Ok doc going to answer some of this here, Thanks for the input and i think im good with most/some of it.

1. The picture ive attached shows ALL 4 pipes coming from my tank. Both the 2 siphon drains and the 2 emergency overflow pipes. Two on the left that are emptying into the tank (one ALOT and the other is the trickle) and the two pipes in the center of the sump. Those are the emergency drain pipes. Those have NO water coming from them as they shouldn't i guess. Those pipes are exactly even with the Weirs/top of the overflows and the siphon drains are exactly 6 inches below them on both sides with strainers attached.

2. The only place i have BALL valves is right below the bottom of the tank. Picture attached. Not sure what you mean about ""The full siphon drain should have a gate valve on it after it enters into the sump"".

3. I do NOT have any gurgling once i adjust the 2 valves from the drain lines. The one of the left is fully open and the one on the right is about 80% open. this keeps them at the perfect level (mid strainer) and there is not noise

4. I will have to digest what you are talking about with the water height and flow to be able to respond intelligently (if at all possible) lol .

5. lastly, i have turned off the pump every night since i am using waste water at the moment to test the flow and leakage of the tank. with the pump turned off the water does not rise more than an inch or so from where you see the baffles (white things) at now. So if anything i am thinking i just dont have enough water in the sump??

Excellent! It sounds like you have a good setup in place already!

As for my comment: "The full siphon drain should have a gate valve on it after it enters into the sump" -- This refers to the need for a valve on the full siphon drain lines (the ones entering on the left of your sump). I prefer gate valves since Herbie designs take micro-movement on the valves to adjust...it's kind of hard to do those micro-turns with a ball valve, but it could be done.

As long as you don't have a suction of air into the return pump in the sump, then it sounds like your water level is correct.

You do want to watch "horizontal" runs of your plumbing...air can get trapped in the lines and can't be pushed out. This will reduce the amount of water that can be pushed through the piping...it can also cause a gurgling noise in the pipe sometimes as well. Best to make sure the horizontal runs have a slight downward angle to avoid this problem.

 

[Reefrookie733]

When I was water testing my tank out on my driveway, I ran water through the weir as fast as it could go. Over filling the tank slightly. And then measured the number of gallons I collected in the sump after just 1 minute. I did it 3 times to be sure and all 3 were close together at about 15gpm.

Thanks man! Im going to have to give that a try to see if i can tell how much flow % i am getting. Thanks!

 

[Reefrookie733]

Excellent! It sounds like you have a good setup in place already!

As for my comment: "The full siphon drain should have a gate valve on it after it enters into the sump" -- This refers to the need for a valve on the full siphon drain lines (the ones entering on the left of your sump). I prefer gate valves since Herbie designs take micro-movement on the valves to adjust...it's kind of hard to do those micro-turns with a ball valve, but it could be done.

As long as you don't have a suction of air into the return pump in the sump, then it sounds like your water level is correct.

You do want to watch "horizontal" runs of your plumbing...air can get trapped in the lines and can't be pushed out. This will reduce the amount of water that can be pushed through the piping...it can also cause a gurgling noise in the pipe sometimes as well. Best to make sure the horizontal runs have a slight downward angle to avoid this problem.

I'm going to add more water to the sump in the morning and see if that helps with the issue, but lapin did notice that my longer pipe is running horizontal and maybe just a tad bit upward so i might work on angling that down. Thank you very much for your input. It is greatly appreciated!

 

[Reefrookie733]

I thought the same thing Idoc....after looking at the more recent pictures I think the two drains we see in the first picture are the two full siphons from his dual overflows and the emergency drains are emptying in a different chamber.

Reefrookie, is there any air coming out of either full siphon (may not be able to tell unless they are under the water). If the one with less flow is the one with the longer course to get there, it may not have purged all the air out of it. If so the emergency drain from that overflow should have more flow coming out of it than the other one.

Also, since you have ball valves rather than gate valves, try opening up the one that has less flow a little and see if that increases the flow.

salty,
I added the extension and put them underwater and had bubbles coming out of both. I think this might either be an issue of the longer pipe is not down angled enough OR i need to add a little more water to the sump to push that into the other overflow?? Going to try it in the morning!
Thank you kindly for the information. You guys are great.....not matter what Mr. McJones says about you guys! lol

 

[Reefrookie733]

That might work. Its my guess the 90 degree run is the problem. So if you can fix that then it "should" be an even flow out of both drains
Adding more water in the return section will not fix the drain issue. As long as the pumps intake pipe is full of water and you dont have the pumps exit dialed back, it will pump the same amount of water, no matter how full the return section is

Ahhhh...just saw this post, SO more than likely it is the angle of the pipe then! dang! well i guess a little more plumbing work now is better than having to do it when i have real saltwater and other stuff in the tank! lol

Ty sir.

 

[saltyhog]

It can work with a 90 degree but it's a lot harder to get the siphon to purge. If you've got bubbles coming out of the siphons I would think the air is not purged completely.

Is your return pump restricted at all now? If so try opening it wide open and see if the water level rises in the overflows and the siphons purge completely. Then slowly open the siphons a little bit at a time to adjust the water level. If they purge the water level in the overflow may drop dramatically and even get down to the top of the siphons. If so, you can adjust the valves closed a tiny bit, and do it over again to purge the air and hopefully have the level not fall too much.

 

[Reefrookie733]

Excellent! It sounds like you have a good setup in place already!

As for my comment: "The full siphon drain should have a gate valve on it after it enters into the sump" -- This refers to the need for a valve on the full siphon drain lines (the ones entering on the left of your sump). I prefer gate valves since Herbie designs take micro-movement on the valves to adjust...it's kind of hard to do those micro-turns with a ball valve, but it could be done.

As long as you don't have a suction of air into the return pump in the sump, then it sounds like your water level is correct.

You do want to watch "horizontal" runs of your plumbing...air can get trapped in the lines and can't be pushed out. This will reduce the amount of water that can be pushed through the piping...it can also cause a gurgling noise in the pipe sometimes as well. Best to make sure the horizontal runs have a slight downward angle to avoid this problem.

Good morning guys/doc. thanks for your help last night. SO i added 5 gallons of water and opened up all the valves full and at one point i had BOTH siphon drains flowing quite a bit. I also had ALOT of water coming out of the return loc lines, which is a good thing, i got to see how much water it would actually push out. (will still need powerheads i know)

For the bad part, with all the valves open the water in the sump as well as the overflows fluctuate up and down ALOT.

**The return pump level fills up mid sump then down to bottom where it pulls a little air through the strainer, then back up!
**that causes only ONE side (the short pipe side) to fill up and use the emergency overflow

**WHICH causes the "long pipe" side (left) to drain correctly but the right is too full and i cannot open the valve anymore??

So yesterday i had no noise and decent return flow with with one drain trickling

Added 5 gallons of water and the thing is all over the place, BUT at one point both drains had alot of water coming out of them.

Sorry to keep hounding at this issue and i realize if you guys want to tap out, but if i cant get my water flow correct then i cannot go onto to the next round.

Thx guys!
Wes

 

[saltyhog]

Alright! Sounds like we are getting there.

It sounds like what is happening now is that both full siphons are purging and becoming true full siphons. With the valves wide open they are able to drain more than the output of your return pump. When this happens the level of water in your overflow will drop to the point that one or both of them sucks air and no longer is a full siphon(or possible from your description the return is sucking air and isn't able to pump) That will make it noisy until the water level rises enough to purge the air and return to full siphon. Then the process repeats itself.

Now it's a matter of tuning the valves to get the flow balanced with the return pump. I think what I would try first is to close the short pipe full siphon about 50% with the valve and leave the long pipe siphon wide open. When the long pipe siphon purges watch the water level in that overflow. If it rises you can in small increments close the valve a little until it's balanced.

If it were me, I'd set the emergency drains height to the exact water level I wanted in the overflow (about 3/4" below the weir is where mine is) and adjust so that just a small amount of water is going down the emergency drains.

 

[Reefrookie733]

Alright! Sounds like we are getting there.

It sounds like what is happening now is that both full siphons are purging and becoming true full siphons. With the valves wide open they are able to drain more than the output of your return pump. When this happens the level of water in your overflow will drop to the point that one or both of them sucks air and no longer is a full siphon(or possible from your description the return is sucking air and isn't able to pump) That will make it noisy until the water level rises enough to purge the air and return to full siphon. Then the process repeats itself.

Now it's a matter of tuning the valves to get the flow balanced with the return pump. I think what I would try first is to close the short pipe full siphon about 50% with the valve and leave the long pipe siphon wide open. When the long pipe siphon purges watch the water level in that overflow. If it rises you can in small increments close the valve a little until it's balanced.

If it were me, I'd set the emergency drains height to the exact water level I wanted in the overflow (about 3/4" below the weir is where mine is) and adjust so that just a small amount of water is going down the emergency drains.

So the up and down bouncing/purging water thing is common with all valves wide open?

1. Should i leave the outlet of the return fully open and start with adjusting the siphon valves first? short close 50% and long leave open for now got that part.

2. On your/most other tanks you let the water level rise to allow for some water to spill into the emergency drains? is this a common practice or just something you like doing?

Thanks for the info. Im gonna owe everyone a round of beers! lol
Wes

 

[saltyhog]

#1 Yeah I think I'd leave it wide open for now...you were wanting to maximize your flow from your return. If the siphon keeps breaking because your water level falls in the return chamber despite your adjustments you will have to close it down a little. 1" full siphons can handle a lot of water though. My return is about 1300 gph and my single 1" siphon is only about 3/4 open.

#2 That's the standard Herbie for most people that use it...at least everyone that I know personally. It's just a Bean Animal without the dry emergency.

Edit.....if it's not working and you can do it, post back a video with video of what's happening in drain section of the sump, the return section of the sump and in the top of the overflows.

Also, do you have your siphons under water yet. That seemed to make it easier for mine to purge the air in it.

 

[Reefrookie733]

I cant leave the retu

#1 Yeah I think I'd leave it wide open for now...you were wanting to maximize your flow from your return. If the siphon keeps breaking because your water level falls in the return chamber despite your adjustments you will have to close it down a little. 1" full siphons can handle a lot of water though. My return is about 1300 gph and my single 1" siphon is only about 3/4 open.

#2 That's the standard Herbie for most people that use it...at least everyone that I know personally. It's just a Bean Animal without the dry emergency.

Edit.....if it's not working and you can do it, post back a video with video of what's happening in drain section of the sump, the return section of the sump and in the top of the overflows.

Also, do you have your siphons under water yet. That seemed to make it easier for mine to purge the air in it.

I cant leave the return outlet valve wide open because I dont have enough water coming back in.

When I'm looking g at the weirs on both sides I get quite a bit of overflow on the short side but the long side has very little water coming over the weir. My internet is down. Will send pics of weird in a bit

 

[saltyhog]

I cant leave the retu
I cant leave the return outlet valve wide open because I dont have enough water coming back in.

When I'm looking g at the weirs on both sides I get quite a bit of overflow on the short side but the long side has very little water coming over the weir. My internet is down. Will send pics of weird in a bit

That's weird. Can you take a short video of each overflow with the return pump running?

 

[Reefrookie733]

That's weird. Can you take a short video of each overflow with the return pump running?

trying to figure out how to upload videos. Says that the file is too big to send.

 

[Reefrookie733]

That's weird. Can you take a short video of each overflow with the return pump running?

Ok here's a few videos of

** left weir (long side)
** right weir (short side)
** all 4 drains in sump
** siphon drains with extensions and without
** return pump inlet

Hope this helps.

 

[saltyhog]

Looks like you can open the valve on the right siphon just a bit. You've got quite a bit of water coming through it.

The water level in the return section still looks a little low...is it?

It looks like everything is working pretty good now?

 

[Reefrookie733]

Looks like you can open the valve on the right siphon just a bit. You've got quite a bit of water coming through it.

The water level in the return section still looks a little low...is it?

It looks like everything is working pretty good now?

It’s pretty good. I have the return pump outlet turned down about 40%. I would really like to open it all the way but that’s when I really have trouble balancing the overflow drains

and yes hence the lowest level of the return area...open any more and I don’t have enough draining back into the sump I think

 

[saltyhog]

I meant to say above you can open the right full siphon a bit because the right emergency has quite a bit of water coming through it.

Once all levels remain stable you can add water to set the return pump level where ever you want it to be.

 

[Reefrookie733]

I meant to say above you can open the right full siphon a bit because the right emergency has quite a bit of water coming through it.

Once all levels remain stable you can add water to set the return pump level where ever you want it to be.

Thanks for the info man!

Do most people (that you know of) have their return pump outlet valve FULLY open???

 

[saltyhog]

Thanks for the info man!

Do most people (that you know of) have their return pump outlet valve FULLY open???

It depends on what they are trying to accomplish and what pump they have. It's always best for pump longevity to not restrict it IMO. I have a controllable pump so I can vary the output without having to restrict the pump outflow. If your pump is oversized though, you don't have much choice.