Joculator wasting away

[coral reeftank]

Hey Everyone, I’ve had my joculator angel for about 5 years now. I got him when it was about the size of a nickel. The past few months he has slowly stopped eating and looks more emaciated. The tank has not had any new additions in years so I am wondering what is ailing my poor joculator.

It still recognizes the food, it chases the food but when it tries to eat it always misses the food and rarely manages to actually eat anything. It doesn’t appear to have any external issues, so I’m wondering if its an internal issue or a neurological problem it developed. Any input is greatly appreciated.

The tank is rather peaceful and no one bothers the angel. The inhabitants include
Gold rim tang
Melanurus wrasse
Six line wrasse
6 clowns
Allens damsel
Yellow tang

On a side note I randomly had a 4 year old bartlett anthias pass away randomly several months earlier out of the blue.

 

[Jekyl]

Hey Everyone, I’ve had my joculator angel for about 5 years now. I got him when it was about the size of a nickel. The past few months he has slowly stopped eating and looks more emaciated. The tank has not had any new additions in years so I am wondering what is ailing my poor joculator.

It still recognizes the food, it chases the food but when it tries to eat it always misses the food and rarely manages to actually eat anything. It doesn’t appear to have any external issues, so I’m wondering if its an internal issue or a neurological problem it developed. Any input is greatly appreciated.

The tank is rather peaceful and no one bothers the angel. The inhabitants include
Gold rim tang
Melanurus wrasse
Six line wrasse
6 clowns
Allens damsel
Yellow tang

On a side note I randomly had a 4 year old bartlett anthias pass away randomly several months earlier out of the blue.

White light pictures and a short video will help.

 

[MnFish1]

Check out the Link on my signature - which has a list of questions that help us help you. In the meantime, have you had any other additions? Any other stressors? Any other symptoms?

If you put something (like a plastic tube (i.e. a narrow one) - or a stick, etc - does it react (i.e. can it see well). It sounds like it could be an internal parasite - and perhaps the symptoms relate to a vitamin deficiency, etc.

Edit - are the other fish all doing well - is there any bullying? What are your parameters?
@Jay Hemdal

 

[vetteguy53081]

With previous loss and now this one points to water but before making any assessments, please post pics under white lighting
Some things to check also:
Water temperature
Stray voltage
Age of RODI cartridges
False readings potential

-what is ammonia-nitrate-ph level?
-Is fish breathing normal or labored?
Any twitching or yawning effect?

 

[coral reeftank]

Check out the Link on my signature - which has a list of questions that help us help you. In the meantime, have you had any other additions? Any other stressors? Any other symptoms?

If you put something (like a plastic tube (i.e. a narrow one) - or a stick, etc - does it react (i.e. can it see well). It sounds like it could be an internal parasite - and perhaps the symptoms relate to a vitamin deficiency, etc.

Edit - are the other fish all doing well - is there any bullying? What are your parameters?
@Jay Hemdal

No, the tank has been set up and running for about 7 years now and I had not introduced any new fish for about 4 years as well. Also, my yellow tang had developed an extreme case of hlle, this was due to a carbon reactor churning the carbon media leading to carbon fines I believe. The gold rim tang is fine and does not have any blemishes. I've since switched back to media bags but the tang's fin and hlle doesn't seem to go away even though I feed a variety of foods. (Rods,nori,nls pellets, mysis,flake,calanus)

The fish reacts to stimuli, although slower than when it was fully healthy. It'll come out when I feed but just never is able to get anything in it's mouth.
All other fish are fine apart from the joculator and the yellow tang with hlle.

params are
phosphate - .04 ppm
nitrate - 10 ppm
alk - 8.4
cal - 450
mag- 1500

With previous loss and now this one points to water but before making any assessments, please post pics under white lighting
Some things to check also:
Water temperature
Stray voltage
Age of RODI cartridges
False readings potential

-what is ammonia-nitrate-ph level?
-Is fish breathing normal or labored?
Any twitching or yawning effect?

I'll try to get a video when the lights are on, I don't think it's RODI because I have several other systems using the same water and I do not have this issue in any other system. I'll check for voltage once I get a voltmeter. The temp is 76-78. The fish also breathes normally and there isn't any scratching or twitching that I've observed. It also is more reclusive than it use to be.

 

[ReefLife_Guy]

I assume you don't see any obvious defects to the eyes? Have you tried testing its vision by feeding in dimmer lighting vs. full white lighting? The behavior makes it sound like it is able to make it to the source of food but has issues actually grabbing the food. I agree with @MnFish1 's line of questions, doesn't sound like it has a lack of appetite but rather has an issue consuming the food either from issues seeing it or physically eating it. The reclusiveness may also be an altered behavior because of vision, if it can't see well I'm sure it would prefer to hide. If the fish wasn't coming out to feed, I would suspect some other more systemic disease process.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Is the fish losing weight or showing pinched belly effect?
Is poop normal color?

 

[MnFish1]

Is the fish losing weight or showing pinched belly effect?
Is poop normal color?

The past few months he has slowly stopped eating and looks more emaciated.

 

[MnFish1]

Thanks for the detailed reply. It's hard for me to imagine (though not impossible) - for only one fish to be 'infected' with a parasite in a tank - if the others are doing well - (except your one death) - not sure that illness is likely. But - again - there is some immunity to parasites - and depending on where you got all your fish from (internationally) - it's possible the other fish are relatively immune to whatever 'issue (i.e. parasite) ' your fish might have.

So - I guess there are IMHO - 2 answers -
1. A neurologic issue.
2. A parasite issue (internal).
3. Another cancer/old age

My guess is that joculator angels live much longer than this lifespan - and your parameters (thus far) - see @vetteguy53081 's post. - are ok.

The fact is - some human youngsters develop serious illness for no reason. This could be one of those issues in this particular fish - without resorting to treatments, etc.

But, one thing I did think of - have you tried any live food, or target feeding the fish, etc - Do you know that the age of the fish you bought - was not nearing old age, etc etc. and could be doing badly because of that.

"Size of fish - inches: 3.5 inches (8.99 cm) - They are typically 3.5" (9 cm) in length, though Reef Culture Technologies (RCT) in Hawaii reports their adults reaching 4.5” (11.4 cm). Lifespan: 6 years - Most Centropyge will reach 10 years or more in captivity in proper conditions."

 

[coral reeftank]

I assume you don't see any obvious defects to the eyes? Have you tried testing its vision by feeding in dimmer lighting vs. full white lighting? The behavior makes it sound like it is able to make it to the source of food but has issues actually grabbing the food. I agree with @MnFish1 's line of questions, doesn't sound like it has a lack of appetite but rather has an issue consuming the food either from issues seeing it or physically eating it. The reclusiveness may also be an altered behavior because of vision, if it can't see well I'm sure it would prefer to hide. If the fish wasn't coming out to feed, I would suspect some other more systemic disease process.

Lighting doesn’t seem to matter it’s the same reaction.

Thanks for the detailed reply. It's hard for me to imagine (though not impossible) - for only one fish to be 'infected' with a parasite in a tank - if the others are doing well - (except your one death) - not sure that illness is likely. But - again - there is some immunity to parasites - and depending on where you got all your fish from (internationally) - it's possible the other fish are relatively immune to whatever 'issue (i.e. parasite) ' your fish might have.

So - I guess there are IMHO - 2 answers -
1. A neurologic issue.
2. A parasite issue (internal).
3. Another cancer/old age

My guess is that joculator angels live much longer than this lifespan - and your parameters (thus far) - see @vetteguy53081 's post. - are ok.

The fact is - some human youngsters develop serious illness for no reason. This could be one of those issues in this particular fish - without resorting to treatments, etc.

But, one thing I did think of - have you tried any live food, or target feeding the fish, etc - Do you know that the age of the fish you bought - was not nearing old age, etc etc. and could be doing badly because of that.

"Size of fish - inches: 3.5 inches (8.99 cm) - They are typically 3.5" (9 cm) in length, though Reef Culture Technologies (RCT) in Hawaii reports their adults reaching 4.5” (11.4 cm). Lifespan: 6 years - Most Centropyge will reach 10 years or more in captivity in proper conditions."

Well if their lifespan is around 6 years then this guy is definitely about there. I got him when he was the size of a dime. So he was probably a few months old at the time. I had gotten a trio at the time but lost two during a crash. This guy is the last trooper.
I have not tried live foods but the tank is established with pods and sponges so I’m sure the rock has plenty of fauna to sustain the angel.
Here is the angel

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Lighting doesn’t seem to matter it’s the same reaction.


Well if their lifespan is around 6 years then this guy is definitely about there. I got him when he was the size of a dime. So he was probably a few months old at the time. I had gotten a trio at the time but lost two during a crash. This guy is the last trooper.
I have not tried live foods but the tank is established with pods and sponges so I’m sure the rock has plenty of fauna to sustain the angel.
Here is the angel

With long term captives, you need to consider Mycobacterium marinum, fish TB. It can be isolated from literally every aquarium, it is even found in tap water and frozen foods. It doesn't cause active disease except in rare instances with certain species (pupfish for example). It is otherwise a disease of old fish. It is the primary cause of death in long term captive fish. The trouble is, it has a myriad of symptoms and you cannot positively ID it without a full necropsy.

Here is some text that I wrote on the subject:

Symptoms are varied and non-specific, and can include; darkened coloration, emaciation, fin erosion, skin ulcers, and granulomas on the internal organs (which will stain for gram positive, acid-fast bacteria). In most cases, the disease is chronic and slow-acting, with most fish succumbing due to "old age". However, in some species, held under crowded conditions, acute Mycobacterium infections have been seen, where a high percentage of the population will die, even at a young age. This has been noted in cichlids, pupfish, pirate perch and zebra danios.

Many treatments for Mycobacterium infections in fish have been proposed, but none work well. Antibiotics that have been used include; erythromycin, kanamycin, and rifampicin. It is probable that any drug used would need to be dosed orally, especially if freshwater fish are being treated. Control is the best course of action; maintain optimal water quality, avoid overcrowding, and remove any dead fish promptly.

Atypical Mycobacterium, M. chelonae, M. fortuitum, M. marinum are very common in the environment, and therefore are found in aquariums. They are difficult to culture, but can be isolated from virtually every aquarium if you sample properly. They are commonly found in frozen seafood items, so the chance of them being introduced into aquariums is consistently high.

Sterilization of infected tank decorations and equipment is difficult, and not strongly advised since these bacteria are already in the environment, but > 200 ppm sodium hypochlorite for > 1 hour has been shown to be effective (Noga 2010).


Jay

 

[coral reeftank]

So what do you think would be the best course of action?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

So what do you think would be the best course of action?

If it is Myco, there is no cure. I guess you should go with the idea that it isn’t and try different foods, including live brine, to see if it can turn the tide.
Jay