Just began cycling. A little help please.

[hig789]

Last Wednesday I set up my first tank in close to 10 years. I have had a few in the past but have only went through one full cycle which was the first one. The others were just upgraded from existing tanks.

I ordered a Salifert nitrate test kit with a bunch of the supplies but forgot to get a ammonia kit. So I went to Petsmart and all they had were the API test kits so I went ahead and got the ammonia kit. I know they can be inaccurate but it was cheap so I got one just to see what it did. I plan on ordering a Salifert ammonia kit tonight.

A little back ground. The tank is a 15g all in one with 20lbs of live sand and about 10lbs of live rock that came from a establish tank. The live rock sat in a sealed bucket of saltwater for about a week before I could get the tank setup though. I know it wasn't good for it to sit like that but it couldn't be avoided since we had to go out of town for a emergency. I finally got it setup on 6/3. It is only running filter floss under the overflow. Mixing my own saltwater with IO and a refractometer.

I tested both nitrates and ammonia the day before yesterday and here's what I got. To preface this I am color blind with blue and purple and red and green so I had the wife read the charts while I was reading the instructions to her.

NO3 was between 2.5 and 5
Ammonia was 0

I understand it's just a waiting game but I figured the tests would be much higher. I ran both twice just to be sure.

Any thoughts?

I am going to test again this morning and see what I get.

 

[brandon429]

bacteria will not be killed by that action, it wasn't antibiotic to store rocks in water so we know bacteria are the same as they were for that rock.

The benthic animals are more likely than not to survive that storage, I vote your tank was cycled day 1

post pics, if there are coralline and benthic forms we can see its easy confirmation. I have put a lot of pico reefs online since 2001. Not one was ever cycled, they were insta starts using the manner you described.

 

[brandon429]

The hardest thing about cycling for many is not being sure if its predictable without relying on api ammonia kits to tell you that there .25 ammonia for the next 30 months ish. The fact she reads a zero is the most shocking part of the post. The old rules said you had to cycle all tanks regardless of substrate history, so most do. I would be cycling if I was using dry rocks. You'll never see me cycle or even test fully corallined rocks brought home from lfs because they are predictable. I use them same day, same hour typically, and my last round want even brought home in water. I Could see pods and fanworms opened in 20 mins, that's my ammonia test.

knowing when and when you don't have to cycle at all is one of the most liberating learnings in reefdom. need pics

 

[hig789]

Here's the best picture I have on my phone. I figured that there oils at least be a small cycle since I used the bagged live sand.

 

[hig789]

I'll test it again this morning when I bet home and see what it says.

 

[brandon429]

Also, run the test ammonia on distilled or ro water make sure reading looks the same from ur tank.

based on pics this was skip cycle, no origin point for free ammonia (dead animals or filth organic pocketing) and no need for it either.

Rock has coralline, good to go. if it was more porous I'd be concerned for dead worms inside, but it's not

good to go, reef is in same cycling condition now as day 1000, hard to believe I know. The old rules do not allow for that I know. They also didn't allow for 15 kinds of coral living in a gallon of water for a decade heh

 

[brandon429]

Other rules breaking biological aspects:

since there are no fish, you have to work up your bacteria to a matching load

nope

the active surface area is teeming and can run the same bioload now or in 1000 days. if you kept the tank as is and barely even ghost fed it, it can still handle a fish bioload after 1000 days of fallow running. the only variable for your cycling tank is dead worms rotting, its not a lack of bacteria that are seated well due to its curing

the bacterial communities on live rock are mixed with likely hundreds of species beyond nitrifiers and this association fuels nitrifiers even without fish. invisibly, cured rock is rather self sustenant.

All bacteria follow normal live die cycles. When a bunch of heterotrophic mixed aerobes complete their cycle and die right next to thriving nitrifiers midway in their life cycle, trace ammonia results and nitrifiers are supported.

This isnt even counting benthic animals on the macro scale we can see undertaking same cycle...nitrifiers are supported in so many ways that skip cycling isnt at all surprising for anyone who works with bacteria for a living, even if not marine biology in origin. I can think of even a few more ways they access sustenance, so when its all added up, its rather predictable.

 

[hig789]

The only fish I plan to add to the tank is a pair of small clowns. If my tests reveal the same results should I be G2G or should I wait a little while longer just to be sure?

 

[brandon429]

imo work slowly w fish add separately and test w a simple non api ammonia kit like salifert or hanna ordered online since we are rule breaking here.

I'm more of a bacteria guy than a fish guy but I remember reading in posts to watch out for fighting/bullying w two clowns but I may be off someone else can chime. my lfs keeps 20 or so in a tank ready to sell and I don't see fighting, my advice on the separate slow addition was to ensure no free ammonia.

in the skip cycle tanks we do en masse online fish are added last, a little bit after clean up crew and some easy stater corals, mainly they are not rushed early on as we make sure basic tank balances and water chg abilities are ok. a clump of zos will tolerate classic temp salinity and new tank keeper param shifts better than fish will, and if a fish dies in the new tank if you have to leave again thats serious recycle time, so we found best practice was fish slowly and last, starter simple corals, cuc , tank feeding and wchanges balance first is best. in my opinion any fish should wait out proven tank stability and no dying from clean up crew members first, done in this order of ops things are very predictable.
b

 

[hig789]

I was planning on going to another LFS today and picking up a few more pieces of rock. I assume since these will probably be true live rock it might cause a spike in the levels on a system this small.

I like the simple small setup as it is but I just want to get a little more height to it. I'll have to think about it though. It would give me a lot more room for corals. Might just go back and get some of the already established live rock since I know it will be good to go.

They have some small zoa frags there. I might pick one up and stick it in the sand bed along with a few snails and crabs.

As far as the clowns go. My first intent was just to get one so I might stick with that to avoid quarreling.

 

[brandon429]

adding rock is ok, I could easily add some lr to mine and not recycle so the safe hedge is that you bring it home wet. We need to start telling the lfs how we want our biology packed and readied, not take their lead. id have Em pack that new lr in a bag or bucket of water like it was a fish and disregard any counter offers, this way you know benthics and worms wont die. id pick not the gray, lifeless rock labeled live in a sales bin, but the single nicest purplest chunks from the best display tank thats for sale and it wound be underwater from that tank to yours, a sure living transfer. done that way, you'll be adding more filtration capacity instantly.

The rocks and lsand will support a single juvenile clowns bioload no prob, the only risk in adding fish too fast is the tank not having been verified for a little while in physical stability and it dying or stressing from common new tank issues like temp spikes, salinity mistakes etc

 

[brandon429]

One other offer

you will get first sprigs of hair algae faster by rushing fish inclusion before ramping up the system slower like we do w small corals and cuc

its nbd, cuz the algae was coming anyway, but faster now and with quicker regrowth potential.

so kill it

if you leave new algae in your tank, expect quick algae problems and maybe permanent ones.

The key to preventing algae problems is low tank dissolved nutrients and strong waste export, but the key to dealing with algae you will get anyway is the instant kill. Never, never leave any small areas in the tank, just kill them. 20 methods exist online, pick one.

I used to drain my water down all the way, and use a grill lighter to physically burn off a tiny tuft of algae, ergo I had no algae and I still don't know what my phosphates were to this day. I use other cheats now that are way more effective.

if you learn right now that algae becomes a problem when we leave it in the tank to take over, you'll head off all invasions right now and never have any.

if you see algae in the tank and leave it, and choose to act on the water instead, expect problems.

managing nutrients is a core backbone for algae control but it doesnt work to ensure algae free tanks like direct kill does. little secret right there, 90% do not believe it and thats ok, I enjoy fixing those tanks in our massive 5 year multiple peroxide threads anyway.

Part of the reason its best to add fish after a few weeks running simpler life forms is you get to do your first algae kill with no risk to the adjusting fish where tank drains or rock removals or giant water changes aren't a concern like there will be when fish are there

People who leave algae in their tank and opt for nutrient only controls keep me very busy fixing wrecked tanks, google ' pico reef pest algae challenge thread' to see 70 pages of it and that's only one forum.
b

 

[brandon429]

Fine simple example here

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/361542-neomeris-annulata-and-peroxide/


The tank never had to get overrun. His invasion started with one little import...the fix here along with 10000 other tanks is the direct kill, only we can choose to act on spot 1 while its cute or on day 200 with a full on invasion. We mentioned phosphates zero times in this cure thread. Phosphates matter 0% on whether or not this or any other invader takes his tank again, although low po4 surely helps to prevent large scale issues.

Targeted removal beats nutrient controls in turning around wrecked tanks and in preventing wrecked tanks. Po4 control does not produce the volume of cures we do using direct cheating kills

Here are invaders that rely on import, not any nutrient problems, to take over a tank (which is why direct kill is the go to habit)

Invasive macro algae like dictyota need only to be brought in
Red gelidium
Calcareous brush algae
Valonia
Bryopsis
Invasive dinos
True neomeris which in this thread above was mis id'd
A few more

The primary tank invader that is controlled well by po4 is cyanobacteria and green hair algae in most cases although I just direct kill gha and it stays gone.

My view of algae control is least popular in all of reefing. Good thing we have the giant threads to back it or we might be ran out of town heh

****20 methods exist I don't claim to have a best way. Some prefer algae filters like refugiums or ats, thats fine. All I do is fix tanks using my way and post the option.

I'm an advocate for good po4 and nutrient control, but my best offer is thats second place in algae issues and the option exists to simply disallow it as the primary option. In that 70 pg thread from google, those were all nutrient controlled tanks fixed by the direct kill and they were there as a last option before tank takedown. Imagine how much better if they simply disallowed day 1. I know you didn't ask about algae but we had to pre empt it man lol! Sometimes we cure tanks by just showing what others didnt do.

The reason you can skip a cycle using cured rock also gives you an angle now on algae control. You can remove rocks from tank or drain water down for access/treatment and it won't recycle the rocks. Your major issue for the tank is the sandbed and how it continually stores waste over time, it must cleaned one day.

Im about to clean mine using the principles above of no cycle. My pico reef has a deep sand bed and is about ten yrs accumulated. I'll take out all live rock and corals, set them on the counter for a max of 20 mins maybe, like a tidal reef exposed during ebb/flow, remove 100% of the sandbed and rinse it with clean distilled water over and over till totally clean then reassemble. I'll lose some benthics in the sandbed, but not the bacteria (brief distilled then back to sw, housed in biofilms, not antibiotic) then I'll have the same sand but now free of brown mud. Highly predictable, cycling biology actually affects the whole life of your tank.

 

[hig789]

Well I tested again.

Ammonia - 0
Nitrates - 1.5 - 2

 

[brandon429]

Try to imagine how crazy id sound if it was saying .25



Ive actually been banned from fairly common forums for these kinds of discussions lol so its nice R2R is a place of free speech heh

there are couter opinions out there that people are passionate about, dont take anyones one off advice without some searching and or verification. the resounding majority in this thread would advise you wait on fish and corals, and test the water for actual ammonia digestion options vs my cycle by pictures motion.

google this

api ammonia always reads .25

see how many thousands usually have it say .25 when its zero? many tested distilled water and got .25. and their tap. and their ro. and their spring drinking water, a pattern of .25/.5 emerges

I have heard of some good test kits, apparently you or the reader has the lucky ones. Api works well for indicating large free ammonia changes like fish rotting

but not small increments, except in this case. The skeptics would say however that you haven't challenged your tank with ammonia yet to be sure, so now we can either trust the rock is ready or, simply test it. Search around the many online raw ammonia cycling threads to find the exact type of cleaning ammonia one can get w no surfactants from the gro store, add some drops until you get a definite ammonia reading. then test in 24 hrs, should be zero if truly cycled and you didnt spike it giant high. unless you went crazy with addition you cannot harm the bacteria lightly guesstimating, use some drops, stir, test again in 5 mins see if you have the classic .5 or .25 then retest in 24.


always remember you are free to do a 25%-100% water change at any time to reset your water table if needed. tinkering with dosers and ion adjusters and test kits ad infinitum is an option, but for nano reefers you can just rip change and start fresh any ole time. I do 100% water changes on my reef weekly, leaving it drained for up to half an hour on many of them simply to exercise that adaptive option, for ten yrs. if we google

simon garrats intertidal reef at six months

we see an article where a man drains his reef for 6 hours a day, in the dry air w lights on, just like the ocean. talk about smashing the idea of the mini cycle (notice absence of deep sand bed here, those are liabilities like the gas tank on a 1970s gremlin)

 

[hig789]

I have read through many threads where they are dosing ammonia. That was my next step in my thinking.

It makes sense that with established live rock you can pretty much plug and play because that's where the vast majority of the bacteria is located without a deep sand bed.

I like the idea of a very small bio load while letting the bacteria to continue to grow and get stronger.