|Frank|
Valuable Member
Oh wow! What’s sad is ppl who don’t know better buy it.
Just ranting here
- Thread starter vetteguy53081
- Start date
- Tagged users None
Spicy Reef
Well-Known Member
I wonder how much the cost of equipment and special little diodes that put out special photons on demand play a role in all this...
Not necessarily that the coral farms have to spend more, but as an average new hobbyist jumps in and has to spend an arm and a leg to get their tank up.... it makes it also seem like growing a coral costs big bucks... does it?
We know weeds cost close to nothing...
How much really is the cost of growing good quality high end coral?
Not necessarily that the coral farms have to spend more, but as an average new hobbyist jumps in and has to spend an arm and a leg to get their tank up.... it makes it also seem like growing a coral costs big bucks... does it?
We know weeds cost close to nothing...
How much really is the cost of growing good quality high end coral?
o2manyfish
Valuable Member
I've been involved in the industry for several decades and have established relationships with not only some big name online vendors, but major wholesalers and even collectors in the wild.
The prices on incoming corals is outrageous.
This has always been a difficult business because it's a live commodity. A shipment gets delayed in the winter on the tarmac, or offloaded in the summer on a tropical isle and 1000's of pcs of livestock become worthless. There is no recourse for this at the wholesale/transhipper level.
I've been to fish stores around the country, and outside the country, and I know of only one fish store owner who drove a Ferrari. Most are getting by and might have long term success. But becoming wealthy in this industry is a challenge.
For those of us who have been in the hobby for 10-20-30 years the numbers of fish stores in metropolitan areas we have seen come and go is pretty numerous.
In this industry the mark-up hasn't changed that much in the past 40 years. The product has gotten more expensive, so you can say the stores are making more, but that means that the losses cost 3x,4x,10x as much as well.
Where I have seen the major changes in gouging is coming at the wholesale level. There used to be B Grade, A Grade, Ultra, and sometimes Show - Which meant XXL. And the difference was a B Grade Acro from a region landed at $30 at LAX, an A Grade at $40, and Ultra at $45-50 and Show was based more on shipping costs - but most Show corals had a landed cost under $100.
Since that era - which was in the last 10 years, more regions of the world got internet access and collectors started to see the prices their penny valued corals were getting and really JACKED UP their prices. Then with COVID as a major excuse the cost of freight to ship corals to the US has from some locations gone up as much as 6x the rate is was (per kilo) pre-covid.
Maricultured Pieces that you used to be able to regularly buy at LAX for 4 for $100 (Wholesale) now start at $100/each and go up to $300 for ultra pieces.
Now it is true that at the top end of the live stock - there is some much better looking livestock arriving into the states then there was 10 years ago. But the price of Ultra Stock has jumped up so much. And I see wholesalers that get an ultra piece (legitimate ultra - not hyped name tagging) and will add a ridiculous markup on those pieces of coral.
Seeing shops begging to spend 4 figures, wholesale, for corals is mindboggling to me. Shops will pay for 1 colony of something exquisite more than they used to pay for 5 boxes packed with corals.
And that's just on the distribution side of the hobby.
On the retail side of the hobby, the marketing imagination of vendors in coming up with names, that people cling to without ever researching is unimaginable to me. With a quick Google Search you can easily find a 1/2 dozen if not a dozen different OG Torch corals. OG is for Original Gangsta - Having personally imported torch corals going back to the early 90's - These are not OG torches. OG Torches are Green. OG Torches were wall corals. They may have had blue tips, yellow tips, purple tips, green tips, but they were green. Then when Austrailia opened up we started to see Gold Torch (Called Gold but really orange) with big fat fluffy tentacles. After Austrailia was shipping Golds for several years we started seeing Golds coming out of Indo. These were also Orange not gold and they had much thinner tentacles. They came in 2 grades. The solid colored were A grade, and if the branches weren't solid orange they were B grade.
Now thanks to someone's brilliant marketing these B Grades, less expensive torches, are now rebranded as OG 24K Holy Grail Torches selling for ridiculous amounts. And people are paying these prices while every week more and more are shipping into the states. Let's look at the marketing - 1) They are not OG. 2) They are not 24k - they are shades of burnt orange 3) It can't be a holy grail item if every week I can order more from abroad in any quantity I desire.
If you want to blame someone for the start of all this mayhem, there is one culprit. He's a wonderful guy, and a friend of mine. His name is Chris and if you live near WWC in Florida you can find him running the coral farms.
Chris was given the opportunity to run one of the first online coral vendors around Y2k - It was based in Los Angeles and called Reefer Madness. Chris not only started offering colonies WYSIWYG to the retail public nationwide. But went to the extreme to properly identify the corals he was offering - Was it Prostrata, Loisetta, Gemmaferra, Microthalma, Abroitinades... But Chris found identifying corals was not how people shopped. They wanted the Blue Spotted Monster, Rumplestilkins Mama, Maserrati Stag, and my favorite the Blue Eyed Purple People Eater Acro, etc. Chris and I spent hours walking down the raceways of inventory coming up with creative names and taking photos. And now 20 years later the identification of corals has been lost and we now have a Purple Monster (Yes a True OG Holy Grail Coral), a Walt Disney, a Bill Murray, a Pink Cadillac - corals with some lineage in that you can identify them as the same coral from vendor to vendor and state to state.
But just last night I saw a popular vendor promoting some kind of "Super" "Fancy" "Rare" "Limited" 3 figure Clove polyp. Come on a clove polyp - a beginner coral that propagates too quickly for most people and is considered a weed by those with a successful tank over 5 years old. First off this "coral" has been identified for decades as 'Papaya Clove'; they come from the collectors as 'Papaya Clove', they come from the wholesalers as 'Papaya Clove', the transshippers as 'Papaya Clove' -- But an inexpensive Papaya Clove isn't an item that catches the eye. Add 4 different descriptor titles to it and move the decimal point over and triple the cost and now you got a CORAL!
If this vendor would pay me 1/3 his asking price for these 'special' clove polyps, I could go pick out a new convertible benz with just what's on the far right corner of my tank. It's absurd.
And sadly, the hobbyist not only is paying for this. But is willing to pay for this. If people stop lining up to pay 4 figures for a torch coral, then the 4 figure torch heads will sit, and then legitimately be on sale - And still be too expensive and then finally drop in price and be high end affordable. But there are so many people willing, if not begging, to pay these exorbinant prices for non-special corals - Why would anyone in the supply line change?
Dave B
The prices on incoming corals is outrageous.
This has always been a difficult business because it's a live commodity. A shipment gets delayed in the winter on the tarmac, or offloaded in the summer on a tropical isle and 1000's of pcs of livestock become worthless. There is no recourse for this at the wholesale/transhipper level.
I've been to fish stores around the country, and outside the country, and I know of only one fish store owner who drove a Ferrari. Most are getting by and might have long term success. But becoming wealthy in this industry is a challenge.
For those of us who have been in the hobby for 10-20-30 years the numbers of fish stores in metropolitan areas we have seen come and go is pretty numerous.
In this industry the mark-up hasn't changed that much in the past 40 years. The product has gotten more expensive, so you can say the stores are making more, but that means that the losses cost 3x,4x,10x as much as well.
Where I have seen the major changes in gouging is coming at the wholesale level. There used to be B Grade, A Grade, Ultra, and sometimes Show - Which meant XXL. And the difference was a B Grade Acro from a region landed at $30 at LAX, an A Grade at $40, and Ultra at $45-50 and Show was based more on shipping costs - but most Show corals had a landed cost under $100.
Since that era - which was in the last 10 years, more regions of the world got internet access and collectors started to see the prices their penny valued corals were getting and really JACKED UP their prices. Then with COVID as a major excuse the cost of freight to ship corals to the US has from some locations gone up as much as 6x the rate is was (per kilo) pre-covid.
Maricultured Pieces that you used to be able to regularly buy at LAX for 4 for $100 (Wholesale) now start at $100/each and go up to $300 for ultra pieces.
Now it is true that at the top end of the live stock - there is some much better looking livestock arriving into the states then there was 10 years ago. But the price of Ultra Stock has jumped up so much. And I see wholesalers that get an ultra piece (legitimate ultra - not hyped name tagging) and will add a ridiculous markup on those pieces of coral.
Seeing shops begging to spend 4 figures, wholesale, for corals is mindboggling to me. Shops will pay for 1 colony of something exquisite more than they used to pay for 5 boxes packed with corals.
And that's just on the distribution side of the hobby.
On the retail side of the hobby, the marketing imagination of vendors in coming up with names, that people cling to without ever researching is unimaginable to me. With a quick Google Search you can easily find a 1/2 dozen if not a dozen different OG Torch corals. OG is for Original Gangsta - Having personally imported torch corals going back to the early 90's - These are not OG torches. OG Torches are Green. OG Torches were wall corals. They may have had blue tips, yellow tips, purple tips, green tips, but they were green. Then when Austrailia opened up we started to see Gold Torch (Called Gold but really orange) with big fat fluffy tentacles. After Austrailia was shipping Golds for several years we started seeing Golds coming out of Indo. These were also Orange not gold and they had much thinner tentacles. They came in 2 grades. The solid colored were A grade, and if the branches weren't solid orange they were B grade.
Now thanks to someone's brilliant marketing these B Grades, less expensive torches, are now rebranded as OG 24K Holy Grail Torches selling for ridiculous amounts. And people are paying these prices while every week more and more are shipping into the states. Let's look at the marketing - 1) They are not OG. 2) They are not 24k - they are shades of burnt orange 3) It can't be a holy grail item if every week I can order more from abroad in any quantity I desire.
If you want to blame someone for the start of all this mayhem, there is one culprit. He's a wonderful guy, and a friend of mine. His name is Chris and if you live near WWC in Florida you can find him running the coral farms.
Chris was given the opportunity to run one of the first online coral vendors around Y2k - It was based in Los Angeles and called Reefer Madness. Chris not only started offering colonies WYSIWYG to the retail public nationwide. But went to the extreme to properly identify the corals he was offering - Was it Prostrata, Loisetta, Gemmaferra, Microthalma, Abroitinades... But Chris found identifying corals was not how people shopped. They wanted the Blue Spotted Monster, Rumplestilkins Mama, Maserrati Stag, and my favorite the Blue Eyed Purple People Eater Acro, etc. Chris and I spent hours walking down the raceways of inventory coming up with creative names and taking photos. And now 20 years later the identification of corals has been lost and we now have a Purple Monster (Yes a True OG Holy Grail Coral), a Walt Disney, a Bill Murray, a Pink Cadillac - corals with some lineage in that you can identify them as the same coral from vendor to vendor and state to state.
But just last night I saw a popular vendor promoting some kind of "Super" "Fancy" "Rare" "Limited" 3 figure Clove polyp. Come on a clove polyp - a beginner coral that propagates too quickly for most people and is considered a weed by those with a successful tank over 5 years old. First off this "coral" has been identified for decades as 'Papaya Clove'; they come from the collectors as 'Papaya Clove', they come from the wholesalers as 'Papaya Clove', the transshippers as 'Papaya Clove' -- But an inexpensive Papaya Clove isn't an item that catches the eye. Add 4 different descriptor titles to it and move the decimal point over and triple the cost and now you got a CORAL!
If this vendor would pay me 1/3 his asking price for these 'special' clove polyps, I could go pick out a new convertible benz with just what's on the far right corner of my tank. It's absurd.
And sadly, the hobbyist not only is paying for this. But is willing to pay for this. If people stop lining up to pay 4 figures for a torch coral, then the 4 figure torch heads will sit, and then legitimately be on sale - And still be too expensive and then finally drop in price and be high end affordable. But there are so many people willing, if not begging, to pay these exorbinant prices for non-special corals - Why would anyone in the supply line change?
Dave B
OP
OP
vetteguy53081
Well known Member and monster tank lover
Partner Member 2024
Excellence Award
Reef Tank 365
RGB
Article Contributor
Tampa Bay Reef Keepers
West Palm Beach Reefer
Hospitality Award
Ocala Reef Club Member
305 Reef Club
Wisco Reefers
Midwest Reefer
Fish Medic
MAC of SW Florida
Rock Pool Reef Keepers
R2R Secret Santa 2023
My Tank Thread
My Aquarium Showcase
me too
zoomonster
Valuable Member
Well yes and no. Some places do legitimately aquaculture while most are just buying pieces from distributors or farms like those in Indonesia and chopping them up and selling frags of it at huge markup. Especially with acro's most of the stuff you see out there is freshly glued with no encrusting or growth whatsoever. There you have your basic chop shop. Pretty much the same with Euphyllia chopped up and sold per head.
thatmanMIKEson
Reefing ain't easy$
what's the consensus, is this a good deal? all said and done with shipping I was at about 200$ sent directly to my door step, I feel like it's a good deal, I guess that's all that matters. I definitely know I couldn't find these at any stores close to me, in fact most stores close to me don't have much in the way of acropora, if so it's pretty sad looking and overpriced as well.
OP
OP
vetteguy53081
Well known Member and monster tank lover
Partner Member 2024
Excellence Award
Reef Tank 365
RGB
Article Contributor
Tampa Bay Reef Keepers
West Palm Beach Reefer
Hospitality Award
Ocala Reef Club Member
305 Reef Club
Wisco Reefers
Midwest Reefer
Fish Medic
MAC of SW Florida
Rock Pool Reef Keepers
R2R Secret Santa 2023
My Tank Thread
My Aquarium Showcase
Comes out to $100 per frag which dont look very tallwhat's the consensus, is this a good deal? all said and done with shipping I was at about 200$ sent directly to my door step, I feel like it's a good deal, I guess that's all that matters. I definitely know I couldn't find these at any stores close to me, in fact most stores close to me don't have much in the way of acropora, if so it's pretty sad looking and overpriced as well.
thatmanMIKEson
Reefing ain't easy$
yes the math was easy... and yes they don't look very tall atall, i dont believe they are WYSIWYG, but with the availability and the current pricing of things it didn't seem like an astronomical expense for two nice pieces of color to add to my system, im well stocked so now it's about choice pieces over quantity as space is limited.
question is, is it a fair price to most, would others pay that? I wouldn't pay more but I don't expect them to be much less.
here's the vendors they originally came from
oops Not the ASD I'm sorry couldn't find their site that quick
Last edited:
Icryhard
Active Member
Welcome to basically every hobby you could say. They demand a ton of money since they know people are willing to pay for it. Aside from that part, we also have to take into consideration (at least where I am from) that prices for everything have gone up in a disgusting way, because my government cares more about others in other countries (where they retire at age 53 or something?) and their own pockets whilst people in my "developed" country are retiring at 67, sending children without food to school, because they cannot afford gas and electra prices. Considering dutch people are also cheapskates and also prices are like this, the world has become pretty unstable with these ongoing wars, they're abandoning the hobby and thus forcing the prices up or the sellers would run out of business due to them making no money if they keep on selling it cheap. I spoke to my LFS yesterday and he barely makes ends meet, even though his prices are pretty nice.
Spare time
10K Club member
Lbrdsoxfan
5000 Club Member
Truth.
Spare time
10K Club member
Lol that's nothing compared to my super mega red giant supernova reverse rose bubbletips that are clearly better than other rose bubbletip anemones if you squint your eyes.
Spare time
10K Club member
what's the consensus, is this a good deal? all said and done with shipping I was at about 200$ sent directly to my door step, I feel like it's a good deal, I guess that's all that matters. I definitely know I couldn't find these at any stores close to me, in fact most stores close to me don't have much in the way of acropora, if so it's pretty sad looking and overpriced as well.
I got my rainbow millie for $15 hehe
Oldreefer44
Valuable Member
In many ways, corals have become collectables. Until there is standardization like there are for coins, cards etc ,IMO, we are going to have this issue where vendors are going to try to come up with the latest and greatest variation so that they can make more money on it. I rarely even look at the name, and almost always buy the after auction leftovers. In the end though, it is about supply and demand. As long as there are people who buy into the trends and are willing to pay the going rates then we will continue to have this issue
Lbrdsoxfan
5000 Club Member
Nah the hobby wont die... The covid wave is winding down and those who blew a wad of cash on expensive instatanks (IM, RedSea, Waterbox) are exiting the hobby at a high clip. Reefing is in the end unforgiving, frankly expensive and overwhelming for a lot of (new to the hobby) folks.
jkcoral
Valuable Member
JKcorals Ultra Rainbow Holy War Salvation Atomic Jubilee Bounce Rock Flower Anemone - WYSIWYG
Price:$999.99 Sale: $420.69 Discount: 58% OFF
No low balls, we know what we got.
Edit: Oops, wrong photo
Price:
No low balls, we know what we got.
Edit: Oops, wrong photo
thatmanMIKEson
Reefing ain't easy$
ahhhhh don't tell me that!!!!!
good deal!!!
