Just sodium chloride

[Sisterlimonpot]

Can someone please recommend a brand of sodium chloride that can be safely added to a reef tank?

Basically, I'd like to mix water to 35ppt with reef salt and then raise the concentration with sodium chloride to help beat the evaporation limit.

I've been doing this for quite some time with reef salt but I feel like precipitating elements is such a waste.

 

[Garf]

Can someone please recommend a brand of sodium chloride that can be safely added to a reef tank?

Basically, I'd like to mix water to 35ppt with reef salt and then raise the concentration with sodium chloride to help beat the evaporation limit.

I've been doing this for quite some time with reef salt but I feel like precipitating elements is such a waste.

Can’t help with that, sorry, but is this for a continuous water change and Kalkwasser? If so, I appear to be able to make 80ppt Tropic Marin Classic, without visible precipitation, and alkalinity is in line.

 

[Miami Reef]

Doing that will skew your salt toward sodium and chloride. You’d be suppressing potassium, fluoride, iodine, magnesium, sulfate and other important major, minor, and trace elements.

This is the exact thing we try to avoid with balling for 2 parts. Without balling or a good water change schedule, your salt mix will look more like a sodium chloride solution.

I know you said previously that you don’t need saving. I just wanted to put that disclaimer for anyone reading.

Food-grade grocery-store sodium chloride (Morton) should be safe. I’d wait for @Randy Holmes-Farley to chime in.

Good luck, Jimmy.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

Can’t help with that, sorry, but is this for a continuous water change and Kalkwasser? If so, I appear to be able to make 80ppt Tropic Marin Classic, without visible precipitation, and alkalinity is in line.

Yes for kalk. I mix to 60ppt (IO) and I don't see precipitation either. I don't know if that's good enough though. I haven't gotten around to sending in icp's to compare 35 and 60. I dont even know if that would be a viable test, do they set thresholds for accuracy and would higher concentration test accurately?

Doing that will skew your salt toward sodium and chloride. You’d be suppressing potassium, fluoride, iodine, magnesium, sulfate and other important major, minor, and trace elements.

This is the exact thing we try to avoid with balling for 2 parts. Without balling or a good water change schedule, your salt mix will look more like a sodium chloride solution.

I know you said previously that you don’t need saving. I just wanted to put that disclaimer for anyone reading.

Food-grade grocery-store sodium chloride (Morton) should be safe. I’d wait for @Randy Holmes-Farley to chime in.

Good luck, Jimmy.

I definitely don't know enough of the balling method to speak smartly on it, however I do remember the macna talk from the scientist from Tropic Marin, and my take away was that if left unchecked your salinity will eventually rise while only looking at alk and calc. Yes, I get the correlation between sodium chloride and other elements, but that seemed like it was defined around only dosing according to the balling method.

I do some unorthodox things with my tank. Not only am I dosing kalk, but I'm running a carx. Plus I'm doing auto water changes with concentrated salt all the while having the 2 peristaltic pumps run at different speeds to compensate for the kalk reactors effluent and maintain 35ppt inside the main tank... it's complicated to say the least.

Last thread I asked about mixing salt to a higher concentration and was somewhat reserved with my answers because I didn't want the readers to get the idea and do something stupid. I'm not one to scream my methods from the roof top and say be like me. But so far this seems to be working for me... but it's definitely not for most, maybe no one.

I doubt Randy will chime in on this thread based on his frustration with me from my last post.

Perhaps the macna talk from tropic marin applies here and this idea of mixing higher concentration passed 35ppt with only sodium chloride is a huge red flag... that I don't know, hence why I defer to the experts

 

[Miami Reef]

Yes, I get the correlation between sodium chloride and other elements, but that seemed like it was defined around only dosing according to the balling method.

If you are dosing 2 part solutions, sodium (from carbonate, bicarbonate, hydroxide) will be in excess.

Chloride from the calcium chloride is also excess, meaning you are only adding that because you need the calcium.

When the sodium and chloride come in contact, they will bind, forming salt, which will raise your salinity over time.

When you correct the salinity increase, you bring the sodium and chloride back to their correct concentration, but you will suppress all the other elements.

That effect is exactly what you are doing with the water changes: bringing up sodium chloride higher in the water change to maintain 35ppt salinity in the display. Each water change is going to remove the current salinity balance, and replace it with a higher sodium chloride concentration.

I’m don’t know how long (if at all) it will take to see the effects of that.

Not only am I dosing kalk, but I'm running a carx.

Many people do this.

Plus I'm doing auto water changes with concentrated salt all the while having the 2 peristaltic pumps run at different speeds to compensate for the kalk reactors effluent and maintain 35ppt inside the main tank... it's complicated to say the least.

I haven’t heard of anyone doing this. Perhaps there is a way around the dilemma.

@Randy Holmes-Farley will come on, and I’m sure he’ll leave his thoughts soon. As far as I know, he wasn’t frustrated at you. He was trying to explain why he couldn’t give blanket statements without knowing the context prior.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Sorry, I don’t even recall which previous thread we are talking about. lol

As mentioned, this process will slowly skew the tank to be low in everything except sodium chloride, unless you specifically dose them too.

If I were to do this, I’d use hypersaline seawater, and if there was apparent precipitate even when using a low alk mix, I’d lower the pH in it with soda water or vinegar to greatly reduce precipitation.

 

[Miami Reef]

Sorry, I don’t even recall which previous thread we are talking about. lol

As mentioned, this process will slowly skew the tank to be low in everything except sodium chloride, unless you specifically dose them too.

If I were to do this, I’d use hypersaline seawater, and if there was apparent precipitate even when using a low alk mix, I’d lower the pH in it with soda water or vinegar to greatly reduce precipitation.

This was the thread: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/h...e-i-have-to-worry-about-precipitation.944440/

 

[Garf]

This was the thread: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/h...e-i-have-to-worry-about-precipitation.944440/

Just read that thread. Did I solve the mystery? lol

 

[Miami Reef]

edit

 

[Garf]

Yes for kalk. I mix to 60ppt (IO) and I don't see precipitation either. I don't know if that's good enough though. I haven't gotten around to sending in icp's to compare 35 and 60. I dont even know if that would be a viable test, do they set thresholds for accuracy and would higher concentration test accurately?



I definitely don't know enough of the balling method to speak smartly on it, however I do remember the macna talk from the scientist from Tropic Marin, and my take away was that if left unchecked your salinity will eventually rise while only looking at alk and calc. Yes, I get the correlation between sodium chloride and other elements, but that seemed like it was defined around only dosing according to the balling method.

I do some unorthodox things with my tank. Not only am I dosing kalk, but I'm running a carx. Plus I'm doing auto water changes with concentrated salt all the while having the 2 peristaltic pumps run at different speeds to compensate for the kalk reactors effluent and maintain 35ppt inside the main tank... it's complicated to say the least.

Last thread I asked about mixing salt to a higher concentration and was somewhat reserved with my answers because I didn't want the readers to get the idea and do something stupid. I'm not one to scream my methods from the roof top and say be like me. But so far this seems to be working for me... but it's definitely not for most, maybe no one.

I doubt Randy will chime in on this thread based on his frustration with me from my last post.

Perhaps the macna talk from tropic marin applies here and this idea of mixing higher concentration passed 35ppt with only sodium chloride is a huge red flag... that I don't know, hence why I defer to the experts

My tiny contribution to this thread;

Exceeding the limewater evaporation limit

Bit of a back story. In my old tank, many moons ago I used to do waterchanges by pumping in low salinity water, which used to overflow out of the acrylic sump, caring for the saltwater change and 75% of my evaporation, in one pump. The other 25% of the evaporation was taken into account by...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

This was the thread: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/h...e-i-have-to-worry-about-precipitation.944440/

Thanks. Luckily, I gave the same answer there: add acid if precipitation happens when trying to make slightly hypersaline seawater.

I think that is a far better plan than skewing the seawater to lower everything except sodium and chloride.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

Are you saying that worst case scenario by mixing hypersaline water is precipitation of calcium carbonate? Or does the elevated alkalinity also cause other trace elements to precipitate as well?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Are you saying that worst case scenario by mixing hypersaline water is precipitation of calcium carbonate? Or does the elevated alkalinity also cause other trace elements to precipitate as well?

Depending on how high you go, of course, I do not think the salinity itself is going to precipitate trace elements if they are not attaching to larger precipitated materials, such as calcium carbonate, or if the salinity is high enough, calcium sulfate.

 

[hunterallen40]

Yes for kalk. I mix to 60ppt (IO) and I don't see precipitation either. I don't know if that's good enough though. I haven't gotten around to sending in icp's to compare 35 and 60. I dont even know if that would be a viable test, do they set thresholds for accuracy and would higher concentration test accurately?



I definitely don't know enough of the balling method to speak smartly on it, however I do remember the macna talk from the scientist from Tropic Marin, and my take away was that if left unchecked your salinity will eventually rise while only looking at alk and calc. Yes, I get the correlation between sodium chloride and other elements, but that seemed like it was defined around only dosing according to the balling method.

I do some unorthodox things with my tank. Not only am I dosing kalk, but I'm running a carx. Plus I'm doing auto water changes with concentrated salt all the while having the 2 peristaltic pumps run at different speeds to compensate for the kalk reactors effluent and maintain 35ppt inside the main tank... it's complicated to say the least.

Last thread I asked about mixing salt to a higher concentration and was somewhat reserved with my answers because I didn't want the readers to get the idea and do something stupid. I'm not one to scream my methods from the roof top and say be like me. But so far this seems to be working for me... but it's definitely not for most, maybe no one.

I doubt Randy will chime in on this thread based on his frustration with me from my last post.

Perhaps the macna talk from tropic marin applies here and this idea of mixing higher concentration passed 35ppt with only sodium chloride is a huge red flag... that I don't know, hence why I defer to the experts

Still struggling to understand what you do, after reading both threads..e but I'm very interested.

From what I gather, you have a calcium reactor on a continuous duty doser (A), doing this the usual way.

In addition, you are dosing kalkwasser. I assume not from a continuous duty doser?

Then, you have hypersaline clean water being added on a continuous duty doser (B), and tank water being removed via a continuous duty doser running faster than doser B?

Do you also add water in via a continuous duty doser, or are you just letting the ATO handle it? I would imagine you need both a doser + the ATO to pull this off, but am curious to know what is happening?

My interest is peaked. I would love to see the way you are doing things, if you could please share? Maybe some pictures to go with it? Purely for academic reasons . Just because people do things one way, doesn't mean that is the only way.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Can someone please recommend a brand of sodium chloride that can be safely added to a reef tank?

Basically, I'd like to mix water to 35ppt with reef salt and then raise the concentration with sodium chloride to help beat the evaporation limit.

I've been doing this for quite some time with reef salt but I feel like precipitating elements is such a waste.

I always used Morton Purex. No additives like anti-caking agents or iodine.

Morton® PUREX® AND TFC PUREX® SALTS - Morton Salt

www.mortonsalt.com

Jay

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

Still struggling to understand what you do, after reading both threads..e but I'm very interested.

From what I gather, you have a calcium reactor on a continuous duty doser (A), doing this the usual way.

In addition, you are dosing kalkwasser. I assume not from a continuous duty doser?

Then, you have hypersaline clean water being added on a continuous duty doser (B), and tank water being removed via a continuous duty doser running faster than doser B?

Do you also add water in via a continuous duty doser, or are you just letting the ATO handle it? I would imagine you need both a doser + the ATO to pull this off, but am curious to know what is happening?

My interest is peaked. I would love to see the way you are doing things, if you could please share? Maybe some pictures to go with it? Purely for academic reasons . Just because people do things one way, doesn't mean that is the only way.

You basically got it right... but because I'm using kalk to maintain pH, my tank has to have enough coral to meet the demand for all the extra calcium carbonate or else my alk would go through the roof.

The carx runs constantly with the help of 2 versas. One maintains a constant flow while the other only turns on with the lights on to boost effluent. It's a barbaric way to do it but once versa is integrated into apex fusion, I think I'll be able to remove the 2nd. The purpose (whether it's a good idea or not) of the carx is to help with trace elements and magnesium.

Here's a quick video that should answer most of your questions.

 

[hunterallen40]

You basically got it right... but because I'm using kalk to maintain pH, my tank has to have enough coral to meet the demand for all the extra calcium carbonate or else my alk would go through the roof.

The carx runs constantly with the help of 2 versas. One maintains a constant flow while the other only turns on with the lights on to boost effluent. It's a barbaric way to do it but once versa is integrated into apex fusion, I think I'll be able to remove the 2nd. The purpose (whether it's a good idea or not) of the carx is to help with trace elements and magnesium.

Here's a quick video that should answer most of your questions.

Awesome. Thank you very much for the walkthrough!

This absolutely makes sense. It is indeed a very unique setup. Lots of dials to play with, but, if you get it really well tuned, I could see this being pretty great.

Naturally, I now have some follow up questions haha.

What kind of corals are you keeping?

What kind of swings do you see salinity wise?

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

Awesome. Thank you very much for the walkthrough!

This absolutely makes sense. It is indeed a very unique setup. Lots of dials to play with, but, if you get it really well tuned, I could see this being pretty great.

Naturally, I now have some follow up questions haha.

What kind of corals are you keeping?

What kind of swings do you see salinity wise?

It's an sps dominant tank... if you look at my last post of my build thread you can see the latest video of the tank.

Salinity doesn't swing unless I get lazy. I'm currently in the process of automating the entire thing but hung up on a few things.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

It's an sps dominant tank... if you look at my last post of my build thread you can see the latest video of the tank.

Salinity doesn't swing unless I get lazy. I'm currently in the process of automating the entire thing but hung up on a few things.

I think these problems would go away using a two part made from calcium chloride, sodium hydroxide, and Balling Part C. As much alk and calcium as you want, same pH effect as kalkwasser, and no skewing of ions or evaporation limit issues.