Juvenile Convict Tang with large issue on side

[MN_ReeferKev]

Hello,

I have attached the best picture I could get of the juvenile convict tang. It seems like the spot(second to last stripe towards the top) is almost wearing away on the fish. Started as what looked like a white "scab" or something similar a few days ago. That went down and it seemed like it was getting better but now it almost seems like the effected part is almost deteriorating/wasting away.

He had quite the appetite until this morning and is now hanging around the top of the tank and seems to be breathing heavy.

Any thoughts/suggestions?

Thank you!

 

[MnFish1]

Sorry about your fish.

In my signature - there is a link to some questions that will help us help you - BUT - here are my initial thoughts:

1. It looks like a bacterial infection (though hard to see in the blue light) - and probably requires a hospital tank - with a broad spectrum antibiotic. (Kanaplex/Maracyn 2)
2. it could be due to injury, skin flukes, bullying, etc - can you give some more history - how did it start, progress, get better and then progress again (what did it look like0
3. The rapid breathing may be a sign of systemic bacterial infection, a problem with your parameters (ammonia, oxygen etc), a fluke problem, velvet, etc. Are other fish affected - have you checked parameters?

 

[MN_ReeferKev]

Parameters are all normal, and all other fish in the tank are completely fine and acting/looking as they always do. Apologies for the blue light picture. Can you advise what I might expect to see for a bacterial infection?

 

[MnFish1]

Parameters are all normal, and all other fish in the tank are completely fine and acting/looking as they always do. Apologies for the blue light picture. Can you advise what I might expect to see for a bacterial infection?

The type of lesion that you're seeing. Its not so much (to me) that its a guarantee - I just cant think of anything else - that would start, get better, then worse. Again - there may be an underlying problem a parasite, even a virus. Its impossible IMHO to tell without more information. Welcome to R2R BTW

 

[MN_ReeferKev]

Appreciate all the info.

I believe i should get him out and into a hospital tank asap. would you agree?

Dont want to spread whatever it is if possible

 

[MnFish1]

Appreciate all the info.

I believe i should get him out and into a hospital tank asap. would you agree?

Dont want to spread whatever it is if possible

I would agree - and I would carefully watch your other fish - in case there could be another parasite going on - (or flukes), etc - I'd like to hear @Jay Hemdal 's opinion

 

[LeftyReefer]

if there is flesh actively being removed, I'd say there is a good chance this is either parasitic, or bacterial in nature, maybe even both.

if it's a parasite, you probably will want to put this fish through a proper copper treatment.
If its bacterial, you will probably need an antibiotic.

I believe its OK to run copper and antibiotics, so maybe hitting it with both would be OK.

I'm thinking enrofloxacin would be a good option to try, but @Jay Hemdal would have a better idea.

If it's both a parasite and bacterial infection, maybe something like Ruby Rally Pro could also work?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Funny is mine had the same thing 3 weeks ago as it’s my newest fish
It appears as a cyst and I added ruby rally pro, followed by prazi pro and it’s gone
My guess was a difference in water quality or my trigger nipped it which with many tangs, trigger would have been my last suspect but he stopped annoying the convict now

 

[MN_ReeferKev]

Funny is mine had the same thing 3 weeks ago as it’s my newest fish
It appears as a cyst and I added ruby rally pro, followed by prazi pro and it’s gone
My guess was a difference in water quality or my trigger nipped it which with many tangs, trigger would have been my last suspect but he stopped annoying the convict now

This sounds very similar to what I experienced. He was new about a week ago and i didn't even notice it at first. Seemed like a big cyst (white bulge) on the side that has slowly gone down and now seems to have left an indent.

 

[MnFish1]

if there is flesh actively being removed, I'd say there is a good chance this is either parasitic, or bacterial in nature, maybe even both.

if it's a parasite, you probably will want to put this fish through a proper copper treatment.
If its bacterial, you will probably need an antibiotic.

I believe its OK to run copper and antibiotics, so maybe hitting it with both would be OK.

I'm thinking enrofloxacin would be a good option to try, but @Jay Hemdal would have a better idea.

If it's both a parasite and bacterial infection, maybe something like Ruby Rally Pro could also work?

Curious - why enrofloxacin. The reason I ask is that using fluoroquinolone antibiotics can worsen antibiotic resistance - and I would not want to spread resistance. However, medication like kanaplex - is not really used much anymore - (an aminioglycoside) - and resistance would be less an issue IMHO

 

[LeftyReefer]

Curious - why enrofloxacin. The reason I ask is that using fluoroquinolone antibiotics can worsen antibiotic resistance - and I would not want to spread resistance. However, medication like kanaplex - is not really used much anymore - (an aminioglycoside) - and resistance would be less an issue IMHO

I only suggested enrofloxacin due to the speed in which it works. (5-7 days) as opposed to some slower working ones like kanaplex which are 10-14 day treatments. I'm also not sure on the kanaplex dosing. It doesn't seem to agree with the fish disease book by Noga. But that is also why I was hoping Jay would respond. He knows much much more about fish antibiotics than I do.

most external bacterial infections on a fish will be gram-negative. Enrofloxacin and kanaplex both work on gram-negative bacteria.

according to Noga, kanamycin sulfate (kanaplex) should be dosed, for prolonged immersion at 50mg-100mg per liter. Every 3 days, for 3 treatments. (10) days. Now keep in mind, that is dosing pure kanamycin sulfate. kanaplex, which is seachem's version, is only 32% kanamycin sulfate. its only 32% pure.

Active ingredients: kanamycin sulfate (32%)
Inactive ingredients: excipients (68%)

Kanaplex comes in a 5g tube. of which only 32% is kanamycin sulfate. So only 1.6 grams of kanamycin sulfate per tube. 3.4 grams of something else, per tube.

According to Noga, my 20G QT tank, containing 16 gallons of water (72 Liters) would need a dose of 50mg/Liter or 3.6g up to a dose of 100mg per liter or 7.2g. Dosed every 3 days, for 3 doses. Wouldn't that take 2 to 4 tubes per dose? times 3 doses? 6 to 12 tubes of kanaplex? At like $8 a tube?

and yet the kanaplex label by seachem recommends much much less than this amount. Who is/was right? Noga or Seachem on the dosage? A lot of Seachem's other claims aren't exactly backed up by science either, so I would not be surprised to find out this one isn't either...

regardless, Endofloxacin works faster and seems easier/more straight forward to dose, so that is the one I recommended.

Endofloxacin dosage is 9.5mg - 19mg per gallon. That works out to 150mg to 300mg per dose for my 72L QT tank.
A nice and easily manageable amount.

Would love to be educated on this though. I don't understand why the dosage recommendation by Noga is so different than that recommended by Seachem.

 

[LeftyReefer]

my math was off... I just noticed i used 72L when I should have used 60L = 16G. 72L would have been a full 20G... need to adjust the math using 60L instead of 72L that I used above.

 

[MnFish1]

I only suggested enrofloxacin due to the speed in which it works. (5-7 days) as opposed to some slower working ones like kanaplex which are 10-14 day treatments. I'm also not sure on the kanaplex dosing. It doesn't seem to agree with the fish disease book by Noga. But that is also why I was hoping Jay would respond. He knows much much more about fish antibiotics than I do.

most external bacterial infections on a fish will be gram-negative. Enrofloxacin and kanaplex both work on gram-negative bacteria.

according to Noga, kanamycin sulfate (kanaplex) should be dosed, for prolonged immersion at 50mg-100mg per liter. Every 3 days, for 3 treatments. (10) days. Now keep in mind, that is dosing pure kanamycin sulfate. kanaplex, which is seachem's version, is only 32% kanamycin sulfate. its only 32% pure.

Active ingredients: kanamycin sulfate (32%)
Inactive ingredients: excipients (68%)

Kanaplex comes in a 5g tube. of which only 32% is kanamycin sulfate. So only 1.6 grams of kanamycin sulfate per tube. 3.4 grams of something else, per tube.

According to Noga, my 20G QT tank, containing 16 gallons of water (72 Liters) would need a dose of 50mg/Liter or 3.6g up to a dose of 100mg per liter or 7.2g. Dosed every 3 days, for 3 doses. Wouldn't that take 2 to 4 tubes per dose? times 3 doses? 6 to 12 tubes of kanaplex? At like $8 a tube?

and yet the kanaplex label by seachem recommends much much less than this amount. Who is/was right? Noga or Seachem on the dosage? A lot of Seachem's other claims aren't exactly backed up by science either, so I would not be surprised to find out this one isn't either...

regardless, Endofloxacin works faster and seems easier/more straight forward to dose, so that is the one I recommended.

Endofloxacin dosage is 9.5mg - 19mg per gallon. That works out to 150mg to 300mg per dose for my 72L QT tank.
A nice and easily manageable amount.

Would love to be educated on this though. I don't understand why the dosage recommendation by Noga is so different than that recommended by Seachem.

I'm going to disagree - on the basis of risk to society - I would never dose a fluoroquinolone - especially a new one - (but even cipro for an anemone). people will disagree - thats ok - just my opinion. Never - ever. resistant bacteria, etc - is a major problem - YEAH - also dosing fluconazole for algae - to me is irresponsible. Oh - and I have a BS in microbiology

 

[MnFish1]

I only suggested enrofloxacin due to the speed in which it works. (5-7 days) as opposed to some slower working ones like kanaplex which are 10-14 day treatments. I'm also not sure on the kanaplex dosing. It doesn't seem to agree with the fish disease book by Noga. But that is also why I was hoping Jay would respond. He knows much much more about fish antibiotics than I do.

most external bacterial infections on a fish will be gram-negative. Enrofloxacin and kanaplex both work on gram-negative bacteria.

according to Noga, kanamycin sulfate (kanaplex) should be dosed, for prolonged immersion at 50mg-100mg per liter. Every 3 days, for 3 treatments. (10) days. Now keep in mind, that is dosing pure kanamycin sulfate. kanaplex, which is seachem's version, is only 32% kanamycin sulfate. its only 32% pure.

Active ingredients: kanamycin sulfate (32%)
Inactive ingredients: excipients (68%)

Kanaplex comes in a 5g tube. of which only 32% is kanamycin sulfate. So only 1.6 grams of kanamycin sulfate per tube. 3.4 grams of something else, per tube.

According to Noga, my 20G QT tank, containing 16 gallons of water (72 Liters) would need a dose of 50mg/Liter or 3.6g up to a dose of 100mg per liter or 7.2g. Dosed every 3 days, for 3 doses. Wouldn't that take 2 to 4 tubes per dose? times 3 doses? 6 to 12 tubes of kanaplex? At like $8 a tube?

and yet the kanaplex label by seachem recommends much much less than this amount. Who is/was right? Noga or Seachem on the dosage? A lot of Seachem's other claims aren't exactly backed up by science either, so I would not be surprised to find out this one isn't either...

regardless, Endofloxacin works faster and seems easier/more straight forward to dose, so that is the one I recommended.

Endofloxacin dosage is 9.5mg - 19mg per gallon. That works out to 150mg to 300mg per dose for my 72L QT tank.
A nice and easily manageable amount.

Would love to be educated on this though. I don't understand why the dosage recommendation by Noga is so different than that recommended by Seachem.

I would go against those recommendations because

1. There is no randomized controlled study - comparing antibiotic xxx vs enrofloxacin
2. Noga is not God.
3. Antibiotic resistance - especially to fluoroquinolone antibiotics is e total mess. Using one for fish - that is not approved for humans - can lead to resistance to those antibiotics for Humans.
4. I have nothing personally against you - but - to me the theory should be - use the cannon ( and to me that is a cannon) - last rather than first