Kalk Drip vs Kalk in ATO in a sumpless system

[LMDAVE]

I have a 40 gallon sumpless reef. I set up an ATO system a few months ago (JBJ), and it seems to work fine (I have a MJ1200 pump to pump to up from below the tank to top of tank about 5 feet in a 1/2 tube, so when the ATO kicks on it pumps about 4 - 5 oz over about a 10-15 second period, I put a valve on it to slow the flow down some, but I need that big of a pump to overcome the height). I decided to start using Kalk to help my pH stay up and stabilize Alk and Ca, so the idea of Kalk in ATO seemed perfect. However, I still read about dripping Kalk in, which puts it in at a much slower rate.

I feel now that Kalk in my ATO is probably a bad idea because I'm putting in about 4-5 oz in less than 30 seconds when the ATO kicks on. Is this a mistake putting it in the ATO, because otherwise a drip spreads it out over hours? Is Kalk in the ATO only for ATO feeding a sump so it's diluted more before it returns to tank?

I noticed my goniopora getting pretty aggravated around the same time the pump would kick on and it would close up for about an hour.

 

[Brew12]

I have a 40 gallon sumpless reef. I set up an ATO system a few months ago (JBJ), and it seems to work fine (I have a MJ1200 pump to pump to up from below the tank to top of tank about 5 feet in a 1/2 tube, so when the ATO kicks on it pumps about 4 - 5 oz over about a 10-15 second period, I put a valve on it to slow the flow down some, but I need that big of a pump to overcome the height). I decided to start using Kalk to help my pH stay up and stabilize Alk and Ca, so the idea of Kalk in ATO seemed perfect. However, I still read about dripping Kalk in, which puts it in at a much slower rate.

I feel now that Kalk in my ATO is probably a bad idea because I'm putting in about 4-5 oz in less than 30 seconds when the ATO kicks on. Is this a mistake putting it in the ATO, because otherwise a drip spreads it out over hours? Is Kalk in the ATO only for ATO feeding a sump so it's diluted more before it returns to tank?

I noticed my goniopora getting pretty aggravated around the same time the pump would kick on and it would close up for about an hour.

I did not like the inconsistancy of using Kalk in my ATO. I would prefer doing a drip. I set mine up on an automatic doser which adds it 70 times a day.

 

[Bob Lauson]

I set mine up a separate drip through a peristaltic pump. The amount added is based on the pH probe reading such that I maintain a pH of 8.25 to 8.35. I also have a back up pH probe for safety as well as a sump high water switch. I do a have a sump where all of this is done. Regarding your specific question/comment on putting Kalk in the ATO, I would not do it due to the flow rates/potential rapid addition and the lack of control regarding maintaining a specific pH

 

[LMDAVE]

Thanks, yeah my problem with having a sumpless system is most small dosing type pumps wont pump the head pressure up 60" that I would need to reach the top of my tank. I don't want kalk reservoirs above my DT for aesthetic reasons. My DT is up a against a wall that leads to my garage. So I could consider a reservoir tank on a shelf in the garage and just feed a small 1/4" tube through the wall to the tank and conceal it pretty well.

 

[Brew12]

Thanks, yeah my problem with having a sumpless system is most small dosing type pumps wont pump the head pressure up 60" that I would need to reach the top of my tank. I don't want kalk reservoirs above my DT for aesthetic reasons. My DT is up a against a wall that leads to my garage. So I could consider a reservoir tank on a shelf in the garage and just feed a small 1/4" tube through the wall to the tank and conceal it pretty well.

I would be surprised if you couldn't find a dosing pump that would work. The cheap BRS brand dosing pump can handle 20' of head.
https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/brs-2-part-doser-1-1-ml-per-minute.html

 

[Bob Lauson]

I agree with the last comment. Peristaltic pumps (most dosing pumps) generate pretty good head pressure (measure in feet usually) and also have pretty good suction pressure. I use one of the BRS 1.1 ml dosing pumps and it is about 24" above the dosing chemical reservoir it is pulling from. The 60" of head pressure you need should not be that much of a problem. I have a spare dosing pump (the BRS 1.1 ml and I could do a little test for you this weekend if you like.

 

[LMDAVE]

OK Thanks, I must have over looked the power of these dosing pumps that when looking for pump options. So, I could see using this with it's own kalk reservoir, and guess I would have to get a timer to run the pump the desired minutes per day (at 1 ml a minute) since I don't currently have a pH controller.

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

I'm with @Brew12. I've never liked dosing limewater in an ATO. Automatic topoffs are usually good enough for keeping salinity stable over the course of a day, but dosing calcium and carbonate alkalinity is a different story entirely. There are many complaints about calcium hydroxide not being consistent.. I have to wonder how many people would say the same thing about two-part if we dosed sodium carbonate or bicarbonate almost exclusively with our ATOs.

I would personally dose it with a peristaltic pump dosing. Just about any peristaltic dosing pump should handle much more than 60" of head pressure. I tested my DIY dosing pump with a standard peristaltic pump head with over 50' of tubing and a 12' elevation change. The dosing volume per minute didn't vary at all.

Also, as an aside, if you dose fully-saturated limewater, a 5oz addition only increases alkalinity by about 0.12 dKh in a 40g tank. That's not very much and is probably not a big issue. That does not, however, account for the pH change. Nor does it say anything about what happens when an ATO sticks on and dumps the entire reservoir in the tank.

 

[Brew12]

OK Thanks, I must have over looked the power of these dosing pumps that when looking for pump options. So, I could see using this with it's own kalk reservoir, and guess I would have to get a timer to run the pump the desired minutes per day (at 1 ml a minute) since I don't currently have a pH controller.

If you wanted to spend more you could get dosers with built in timers so you can dose multiple times per day.

This one isn't too much more and will automatically space dosing based on telling it how much to add.
https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/ts1-single-dosing-pump-bubble-magus.html

 

[Brew12]

If you are thinking long term, you may want to go this route. It is what I use. 1 head for Kalk, the others for Alk, Calc, and Mg.
https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/doser-2-1-sa-4-pump-ghl.html

I use the GHL Profilux controller but you can do it stand alone with this unit. I also like the interface. Kalk is good for many things, but it won't keep up with much demand unless you have a lot of evaporation. In my 180ish total water volume I dose 1400mL of saturated kalk per day but then have to dose another 26mL of each 2 part. I don't even have very high demand yet.

 

[LMDAVE]

I'm with @Brew12. I've never liked dosing limewater in an ATO.

Also, as an aside, if you dose fully-saturated limewater, a 5oz addition only increases alkalinity by about 0.12 dKh in a 40g tank. That's not very much and is probably not a big issue. That does not, however, account for the pH change. Nor does it say anything about what happens when an ATO sticks on and dumps the entire reservoir in the tank.

Yeah, it could be that my ATO system with kalk was not a problem. Even though the pump was shooting the top off with kalk down in in the corner of my tank (which was near some corals), I built a little deflector for the inlet water to hit that spreading it out over the top section of the water which spread it more evenly. It could be the goniopora was just getting aggravated for other reasons, because I didnt see it consistant every time. My ATO probably kicks on about 3 to 4 times during the day.

So, what you are thinking is maybe I wasn't really having an issue with the amount of kalk in the ATO that I was putting in.

I'm all for setting up a separate dosing pump, but looks like that could be about a $150 project after getting everything I need. Not that I'm a cheapskate, but until I upgrade to a bigger tank in the future, I was keeping this one as simple as I could.

 

[LMDAVE]

If you are thinking long term, you may want to go this route. It is what I use. 1 head for Kalk, the others for Alk, Calc, and Mg.
https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/doser-2-1-sa-4-pump-ghl.html

I use the GHL Profilux controller but you can do it stand alone with this unit. I also like the interface. Kalk is good for many things, but it won't keep up with much demand unless you have a lot of evaporation. In my 180ish total water volume I dose 1400mL of saturated kalk per day but then have to dose another 26mL of each 2 part. I don't even have very high demand yet.

At the moment (and see my other reply above) I was trying to keep things simple. I know kalk wont keep up my full alk and calcium demands. I test about once or twice a week and also dose manually to keep things in the range needed. My load is not that big right now. My calcium stays pretty stable at 430ish, but my Alk usually drops down to low 8 and I dose it back up to 9 manually as need. But Kalk was doing good for keeping my pH between 8.2-8.3. I stopped kalk about a week ago and tank ranges from 7.9 to 8.1 now.

 

[Brew12]

At the moment (and see my other reply above) I was trying to keep things simple. I know kalk wont keep up my full alk and calcium demands. I test about once or twice a week and also dose manually to keep things in the range needed. My load is not that big right now. My calcium stays pretty stable at 430ish, but my Alk usually drops down to low 8 and I dose it back up to 9 manually as need. But Kalk was doing good for keeping my pH between 8.2-8.3. I stopped kalk about a week ago and tank ranges from 7.9 to 8.1 now.

Sounds like you have plenty of options. The only other thing you may want to consider is that Kalk tends to eat up ATO pumps. If you do keep running it in your ATO system, make sure to keep a spare pump handy.

 

[pelphrey]

I'm about to start dosing kalk for the first time, it will be dosed with a doser. My evaporation changes nearly every week so the ATO doesn't make sense for me.

 

[hart24601]

I am a big fan of kalk, but with Randy's/Jim new 2 part using sodium hydroxide I switched to using that two part recipe and get the pH bump of kalk that isn't limited to evaporation. Now my kalk days are over. You do need two dosers or two heads but you put magnesium in the calcium portion so it's a win in my book. Never did like the kalk in ato

 

[Brew12]

I am a big fan of kalk, but with Randy's/Jim new 2 part using sodium hydroxide I switched to using that two part recipe and get the pH bump of kalk that isn't limited to evaporation. Now my kalk days are over. You do need two dosers or two heads but you put magnesium in the calcium portion so it's a win in my book. Never did like the kalk in ato

I do like the idea of the new 2 part and the pH bump. I do believe that Kalk gives a bigger pH bump for the change in Alk than the new 2 part does though. Might make Kalk better for lower demand systems. I'll need to dig into that.

 

[hart24601]

I do like the idea of the new 2 part and the pH bump. I do believe that Kalk gives a bigger pH bump for the change in Alk than the new 2 part does though. Might make Kalk better for lower demand systems. I'll need to dig into that.

They both use hydroxide (Calcium hydroxide - kalk vs sodium hydroxide) so kalk by definition can't give a bigger pH bump per unit of alk added. They both pull CO2 for the carbonate so the pH increase is the same.

 

[Brew12]

They both use hydroxide so kalk by definition can't give a bigger pH bump per unit of alk added.

By this, do you mean they use the same source of hydroxide? Or that they add the same molar weight of hydroxide per unit of carbonate?

 

[hart24601]

By this, do you mean they use the same source of hydroxide? Or that they add the same molar weight of hydroxide per unit of carbonate?

If you are adding 1dk/day (or whatever amount) they will both give the same pH increase as they both use hydroxide to provide carbonate. You can make the sodium hydroxide much stronger than kalk, but that is up to the user. The volume can vary as sodium hydroxide can be made much more concentrated (or whatever concentration you like) but the increase in pH per dkh added to the tank is the same which is what matters when meeting the tank's daily demands as you know.

 

[Oshengems]

I would only recommend kalk in your ATO iffff 2 things:

1. Most important you have 24/7 monitor of your PH from a controller very important especially during the day

2. You are willing to loose your pump even with routine maintenance kalk is harsh on that motor unless you’re cleaning it routinely weekly.

Avoid the stress enjoy your tank