Kalk or all for reef?

[TheyGaveItToMe]

Instructions aside. One can add any calcium supplement.

I just realized you were asking about dosing AFR and using Carbo-Calcium to help increase calcium. Which is possible as long as your Alkalinity isn't to high. But, in his example post about low calcium; it wouldn't be a good idea because that tank was already pushing 10 dKH.

 

[HBtank]

How you going to tell me I don't know how AFR works, when you make this claim? You don't know the calcium is available instantly?

AFR contains calcium formate, bacteria only has to convert the formate to carbonate. Which is the reason there is a lag between alkalinity testing and dosing, while calcium shows instantly in testing.

Yes, the calcium is available when calcium formate is dissolved in water. Since formate requires the metabolization of an organic carbon compound by bacteria, it is fundamentally a form of carbon dosing, a relatively minor one, but worth noting in ULN systems.

 

[TheyGaveItToMe]

Yes, the calcium is available when calcium formate is dissolved in water. Since formate requires the metabolization of an organic carbon compound by bacteria, it is fundamentally a form of carbon dosing, a relatively minor one, but worth noting in ULN systems.

You literal introduce 10x more carbon by molecular weight when you feed your fish. Do you consider that to be carbon dosing?

 

[ShoreReefer]

When I used a regular pump in a bucket for ATO with kalk it got all chalky looking. I can't imagine it would be good for the motor life.
As @JSmith mentioned dosing through a doser might be a better idea.

If I ever use it again ill try a kalk stirrer... got me thinking about it now

I used a kalk stirrer for a while and it was great however it was not a sealed system and the PH of the kalk stayed lower than the concentrated solution i have in my bucket with a sealed lid. The only potential CO2 that can enter the bucket is through the hole where the tubing goes in, I purposely didn't seal that to allow for displacement as the solution gets consumed.

 

[GARRIGA]

I just realized you were asking about dosing AFR and using Carbo-Calcium to help increase calcium. Which is possible as long as your Alkalinity isn't to high. But, in his example post about low calcium; it wouldn't be a good idea because that tank was already pushing 10 dKH.

I was replying to a conversation about the pitfalls of AFR and just pointing out an option. One best suited to not increase sodium being a large benefit of AFR.

I know how to supplement for calcium. Everything however needs context and each path taken alters other components of the overall intent.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

You literal introduce 10x more carbon by molecular weight when you feed your fish. Do you consider that to be carbon dosing?

In some ways it obviously is, but in the sense of nutrient reduction it is clearly different since it adds MORE N and P than metabolism of that organic material will consume, rather than the organic carbon dosing method, which adds much less or no N and P and so causes net consumption of N and P.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I used a kalk stirrer for a while and it was great however it was not a sealed system and the PH of the kalk stayed lower than the concentrated solution i have in my bucket with a sealed lid. The only potential CO2 that can enter the bucket is through the hole where the tubing goes in, I purposely didn't seal that to allow for displacement as the solution gets consumed.

That's the way I delivered it as well. I'm not a huge fan of kalk stirrer unless space is an overriding factor due to the difficulty in attaining and controlling the potency.

 

[HBtank]

You literal introduce 10x more carbon by molecular weight when you feed your fish. Do you consider that to be carbon dosing?

Randy noted the differences; a net reduction of N/P is what really constitutes what people refer to as “carbon dosing”. Regardless, you can move the goalposts around, but you were wrong when you corrected someone who noted it:

AFR is also carbon dosing.

They don't at all achieve the same results. They're very different.

What are you talking about? The Carbonate in AFR is Alkalinity. Carbo-Calcium is KH + Ca, aka Alkalinity + Calcium.
They literally achieve the same results of maintaining KH and Ca.

Please realize that I have only responded to you when you “corrected‘ someone with bad information, such as the above. At that point you seemed entirely clueless about this effect of AFR, but it appears you at least did some research in the meantime, which is good.

 

[92Miata]

Randy noted the differences; a net reduction of N/P is what really constitutes what people refer to as “carbon dosing”. Regardless, you can move the goalposts around, but you were wrong when you corrected someone who noted it:


Please realize that I have only responded to you when you “corrected‘ someone with bad information, such as the above. At that point you seemed entirely clueless about this effect of AFR, but it appears you at least did some research in the meantime, which is good.

This whole board is really frustrating with this stuff.

It's almost impossible to have discussions because a bunch of people who don't understand anything start jumping in and trying to correct people who understand things better than they do. It's infuriating.

I see AFR recommended to newbies all the time - and that minor carbon dosing can cause huge issues in newish dry rock tanks that are already phosphate deficient - and they're almost never aware that AFR is a big part of the problem they're having. Like 70% of the problems I seen in the newbie forum are "My tests say I have zero phosphates and zero nitrates, but I clearly have too much and the algae is just eating it too fast to measure. I'm dosing AFR for Alk, using Microbacter clean, and I still can't get this phosphate under control" and it's like - no, you've created an environment that's so deficient in nitrogen and phosphate that the only things that can grow are edge consumers who can either fix them from the environment, or barely use them (IE, cyano, etc). There was a guy on here the other day who had purple bacteria for cripes sake.


Anyone who is going to use AFR should know beforehand that it's going to drive down nitrates and phosphates. It's important.

 

[Jeeperz]

This whole board is really frustrating with this stuff.

It's almost impossible to have discussions because a bunch of people who don't understand anything start jumping in and trying to correct people who understand things better than they do. It's infuriating.

I see AFR recommended to newbies all the time - and that minor carbon dosing can cause huge issues in newish dry rock tanks that are already phosphate deficient - and they're almost never aware that AFR is a big part of the problem they're having. Like 70% of the problems I seen in the newbie forum are "My tests say I have zero phosphates and zero nitrates, but I clearly have too much and the algae is just eating it too fast to measure. I'm dosing AFR for Alk, using Microbacter clean, and I still can't get this phosphate under control" and it's like - no, you've created an environment that's so deficient in nitrogen and phosphate that the only things that can grow are edge consumers who can either fix them from the environment, or barely use them (IE, cyano, etc). There was a guy on here the other day who had purple bacteria for cripes sake.


Anyone who is going to use AFR should know beforehand that it's going to drive down nitrates and phosphates. It's important.

Well thank you for clarifying that, I had no clue and might be why one tank of mine that was doing great with just water changes every other week went to crap after 3 weeks of low dose A4R. Lost a bunch of nice fluffy lps and a wild sps that was growing yet my ALK/Cal was where I wanted it.

 

[areefer01]

Anyone who is going to use AFR should know beforehand that it's going to drive down nitrates and phosphates. It's important.

Important but probably not enough to worry about unless one is incredibly low to begin with. There is a thread on this forum with posts from both Randy and Lou talking about this in 2020. I wish it would drop phosphate but I've yet to see it and I've been using the product for well over 2 years now.

I think maybe a better word smith would be 'anyone who is going to dose any product should know beforehand as it relates to potential side effects. Good or bad.' But I'm sort of nit picking.

 

[billyocean]

This whole board is really frustrating with this stuff.

It's almost impossible to have discussions because a bunch of people who don't understand anything start jumping in and trying to correct people who understand things better than they do. It's infuriating.

I see AFR recommended to newbies all the time - and that minor carbon dosing can cause huge issues in newish dry rock tanks that are already phosphate deficient - and they're almost never aware that AFR is a big part of the problem they're having. Like 70% of the problems I seen in the newbie forum are "My tests say I have zero phosphates and zero nitrates, but I clearly have too much and the algae is just eating it too fast to measure. I'm dosing AFR for Alk, using Microbacter clean, and I still can't get this phosphate under control" and it's like - no, you've created an environment that's so deficient in nitrogen and phosphate that the only things that can grow are edge consumers who can either fix them from the environment, or barely use them (IE, cyano, etc). There was a guy on here the other day who had purple bacteria for cripes sake.


Anyone who is going to use AFR should know beforehand that it's going to drive down nitrates and phosphates. It's important.

So can this be offset by dosing n03 and p04? I ask because I've thought of switching to AFR but I don't know enough about it and info is all-over the place. Currently dose red sea alk/calc but also dose phosphate and nitrate because I don't have a lot of fish. Everything is happy as is but curious
Thanks

 

[areefer01]

So can this be offset by dosing n03 and p04? I ask because I've thought of switching to AFR but I don't know enough about it and info is all-over the place. Currently dose red sea alk/calc but also dose phosphate and nitrate because I don't have a lot of fish. Everything is happy as is but curious
Thanks

What are your n03 and p04 numbers at and what about ca, alk, and mg? You said the display looks happy. That is great. Lou over at Tropic Marin has several appearances on social media as well as one done this year for MACNA 2022 that you can check out. Get an idea of their products and then dive in to get more information if needed.

If you haven't already done so it would be a good idea to test at the same time of day, from the same area, a couple times a week to get your displays consumption rates. Maybe you don't need to do anything. Maybe there is a trend and a water change is good enough. Maybe you do need to dose up more than what a water change can do.

What is your goal. How much do you want to manage or maintain. Maybe Kalk will work. Maybe a 2 part manually corrected weekly. Maybe dosing. Maybe you want to use 2 part, or 3 part, or keep it silly simple and use one part like TM AFR.

Numbers only tell half the story.

 

[billyocean]

Thanks
Alk8.2 25 ml per day
Calc 425-435 15 ml per day
Mag 1400ish
Phos .08 is dose 20 ml per day
Nitrate 14ish..dose if it gets in the single digits
Phosphate stays at 400
W/C 15 gallons every week or so in 125 gallon

Test multiple times a week and have for months..overkill but it's what I do. Goal is always improvement..understandably chasing can cause problems. I always like to weigh my options though.

 

[52728299]

Funny, I didn't know so many reefers took issue with a4r. Reading this it starts to sound like all for reef is possibly getting blamed for more issues than it actually attributes to imo.

I dose a4r and run gfo and somehow I still have nutrients in the water. No issues with problem algae at all, it's pegged my alk at about 9.3, the tanks never been this stable thus far, it gets one 10% wc every week and corals are doing quite well.

Idk I'm not any sort of expert and I'm not saying it's better or worse than other products but reading through the first few pages on here makes it sound like tank death in a bottle.

 

[areefer01]

Funny, I didn't know so many reefers took issue with a4r. Reading this it starts to sound like all for reef is possibly getting blamed for more issues that it actually attributes to imo.

I dose a4r and run gfo and somehow I still have nutrients in the water. No issues with problem algae at all, it's pegged my alk at about 9.3, the tanks never been this stable thus far, it gets one 10% wc every week and corals are doing quite well.

Idk I'm not any sort of expert and I'm not saying it's better or worse than other products but reading through the first few pages on here makes it sound like tank death in a bottle.

No idea but the other side of the coin is that there are many satisfied users of the product. I'm in that camp running at about 130 ml/day.

 

[billyocean]

Thanks
Alk8.2 25 ml per day
Calc 425-435 15 ml per day
Mag 1400ish
Phos .08 is dose 20 ml per day
Nitrate 14ish..dose if it gets in the single digits
Phosphate stays at 400
W/C 15 gallons every week or so in 125 gallon

Test multiple times a week and have for months..overkill but it's what I do. Goal is always improvement..understandably chasing can cause problems. I always like to weigh my options though.

Potassium stays at 400..not phosphate

 

[fish farmer]

Important but probably not enough to worry about unless one is incredibly low to begin with. There is a thread on this forum with posts from both Randy and Lou talking about this in 2020. I wish it would drop phosphate but I've yet to see it and I've been using the product for well over 2 years now.

I think maybe a better word smith would be 'anyone who is going to dose any product should know beforehand as it relates to potential side effects. Good or bad.' But I'm sort of nit picking.

I think I read that post recently since this "carbon dosing" aspect came up in the conversation. I was reading up on AFR recently for curiosity's sake, but will likely stick with kalk.

 

[92Miata]

Important but probably not enough to worry about unless one is incredibly low to begin with. There is a thread on this forum with posts from both Randy and Lou talking about this in 2020. I wish it would drop phosphate but I've yet to see it and I've been using the product for well over 2 years now.

I think maybe a better word smith would be 'anyone who is going to dose any product should know beforehand as it relates to potential side effects. Good or bad.' But I'm sort of nit picking.

Which is the case for the vast majority of newly set up dry rock tanks who follow the "BRS Method" because Marco rock is a phosphate sponge, and they tell you at any sign of algae that "Your phosphates are too high and the algae is eating it too fast to measure"

We have so many dinoflagellate threads now because of stuff like this.

So can this be offset by dosing n03 and p04? I ask because I've thought of switching to AFR but I don't know enough about it and info is all-over the place. Currently dose red sea alk/calc but also dose phosphate and nitrate because I don't have a lot of fish. Everything is happy as is but curious
Thanks

Of course. Or heavier feeding.

It's just a weird thing to recommend to newbies, because it requires way more thought than just using kalk, is more expensive, and doesn't have a whole lot of advantages.

 

[Jeeperz]

Which is the case for the vast majority of newly set up dry rock tanks who follow the "BRS Method" because Marco rock is a phosphate sponge, and they tell you at any sign of algae that "Your phosphates are too high and the algae is eating it too fast to measure"

We have so many dinoflagellate threads now because of stuff like this.


Of course. Or heavier feeding.

It's just a weird thing to recommend to newbies, because it requires way more thought than just using kalk, is more expensive, and doesn't have a whole lot of advantages.

I fit the above, newish, dry rock(Marco) have nothing but issues. I started with 2 part, which ended up being mostly 1 part(ALK) as I rarely had to add calcium and never mag. This is also why I started with A4R, to reduce remembering to dose. I am going to attempt to figure out kalk and try that, probably go the doser route as dealing with the mess of using the ato sounds like a pain and it already has issues with the red Sea ATO