Keep feeding bacteria after cycle is complete?

[Reef_Hobbyist]

I cured some new Pukani dry rock in Rubbermaid bins with powerheads. The first round was in RODI for about 3 weeks. Although the rock looked dead and bleached out, after sitting in RODI for 3 weeks I was amazed how filthy it got. I assume RODI being so pure really leaches out any organics and impurities from the rock.

Then I cycled it in saltwater using raw shrimp. That worked fine (I saw all 3 spikes) but the rotting shrimp fouled the water so I did a full water change on all the bins and then cycled them again using ammonia (Dr. Tim's). I dosed it up to 2 ppm and watched it cycle. I repeated that a second time. The final cycle only lasted a few hours. Then I did another water change because the nitrates were off the charts.

Question: if it is going to be another few weeks before I will be adding the rock to my tank, do I need to continue feeding the bacteria or can I let it sit as is without an ammonia source? I suspect some of the bacteria will remain alive but the numbers will decline. However that may be completely fine and they will rapidly multiply once in the the tank with fish added.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I too am not sure how long the bacteria will remain viable in the absence of continued ammonia, so I'd probably be inclined to add some at least once a week.

 

[jduck]

Is the tank you are adding it to up and running?

 

[Reef_Hobbyist]

I too am not sure how long the bacteria will remain viable in the absence of continued ammonia, so I'd probably be inclined to add some at least once a week.

I am thinking that in the proper environmental conditions, the amount of bacteria present is directly proportional to the amount of food source available and they will increase/decrease accordingly without much of a time lag.

 

[brandon429]

neat challenge to this course of how bacteria may or may not be gaining food even when we dont add

you can take fish out of a reef to go fallow for 3 mos for ich battling, add them all back in 3 mos, and get no recycle, for sure. Thats an instant removal of your highest bioload source, 3 mos without it, then wham all back in, see the fallow threads galore.

have seen it in threads for years and that gives a little clue as to foodstuffs we may not be accounting for. In a negative pressure microb lab, filtered air, and full aseptic technique for all procedures and setups yes you might get some decline if you stop feeding.

But in a home of ten billion skin cells wafting, and that being only 1 out of 1000 aerial flocs that get in, not counting gnats, or a three year olds dirty hands lol, organic stores and their associates in the tank, or ten million heterotrophic bacteria a day that get in, bloom because there's water, and then die because they arent adapted to it (which feeds nitrifiers no longer getting raw input)

our tanks get fed, even when we dont feed, and then again if you just put in some flake food thats a fine hedge too lol.

This little hidden gem in microbiology is how we survived the early 80s when bottle bac wasnt even sold. if someone would have told me to put ammonia from my moms kitchen in my guppy tank when I was 14 Id laugh at them, everyone with a pre 90s mullet knows you can set up a fw tank with water and plastic decor, put your fish in a month after its been running, and get no cycle. Put em in on day two, full tank clouding and fish death, easy to spot the presence of nitrifiers that got there, and self acquired food.

Ive relied on never feeding any cycle the entire life ive been doing tanks. bacteria were getting fed naturally before i ever knew one iota how.

the only thing aquarists control is the time, even left totally alone, a tank full of only red bricks and water will be able to support a base entry bioload within 30-90 days as conditions range for the natural contaminations to occur.

the ammonia gets in by trace protein degredation, and the nitrifiers get in from several modes and theres nothing we can do to stop it, shy of meds that kill bacteria. we merely speed up the time to 2 weeks if preferred by force cycling. A tank would not self cycle well at all if it was setup and maintained in pure aseptic conditions.

 

[Reef_Hobbyist]

neat challenge to this course of how bacteria may or may not be gaining food even when we dont add

you can take fish out of a reef to go fallow for 3 mos for ich battling, add them all back in 3 mos, and get no recycle, for sure. Thats an instant removal of your highest bioload source, 3 mos without it, then wham all back in, see the fallow threads galore.

have seen it in threads for years and that gives a little clue as to foodstuffs we may not be accounting for. In a negative pressure microb lab, filtered air, and full aseptic technique for all procedures and setups yes you might get some decline if you stop feeding.

But in a home of ten billion skin cells wafting, and that being only 1 out of 1000 aerial flocs that get in, not counting gnats, or a three year olds dirty hands lol, organic stores and their associates in the tank, or ten million heterotrophic bacteria a day that get in, bloom because there's water, and then die because they arent adapted to it (which feeds nitrifiers no longer getting raw input)

our tanks get fed, even when we dont feed, and then again if you just put in some flake food thats a fine hedge too lol.

This little hidden gem in microbiology is how we survived the early 80s when bottle bac wasnt even sold. if someone would have told me to put ammonia from my moms kitchen in my guppy tank when I was 14 Id laugh at them, everyone with a pre 90s mullet knows you can set up a fw tank with water and plastic decor, put your fish in a month after its been running, and get no cycle. Put em in on day two, full tank clouding and fish death, easy to spot the presence of nitrifiers that got there, and self acquired food.

Ive relied on never feeding any cycle the entire life ive been doing tanks. bacteria were getting fed naturally before i ever knew one iota how.

the only thing aquarists control is the time, even left totally alone, a tank full of only red bricks and water will be able to support a base entry bioload within 30-90 days as conditions range for the natural contaminations to occur.

the ammonia gets in by trace protein degredation, and the nitrifiers get in from several modes and theres nothing we can do to stop it, shy of meds that kill bacteria. we merely speed up the time to 2 weeks if preferred by force cycling. A tank would not self cycle well at all if it was setup and maintained in pure aseptic conditions.

Thanks for sharing that.... particularly at lunch time.... I wonder how many bacteria are on my turkey sandwich??

 

[omykiss001]

I cured some new Pukani dry rock in Rubbermaid bins with powerheads. The first round was in RODI for about 3 weeks. Although the rock looked dead and bleached out, after sitting in RODI for 3 weeks I was amazed how filthy it got. I assume RODI being so pure really leaches out any organics and impurities from the rock.

Then I cycled it in saltwater using raw shrimp. That worked fine (I saw all 3 spikes) but the rotting shrimp fouled the water so I did a full water change on all the bins and then cycled them again using ammonia (Dr. Tim's). I dosed it up to 2 ppm and watched it cycle. I repeated that a second time. The final cycle only lasted a few hours. Then I did another water change because the nitrates were off the charts.

Question: if it is going to be another few weeks before I will be adding the rock to my tank, do I need to continue feeding the bacteria or can I let it sit as is without an ammonia source? I suspect some of the bacteria will remain alive but the numbers will decline. However that may be completely fine and they will rapidly multiply once in the the tank with fish added.

If your Pukani is anything like mine never needed to add additional organic matter to cycle the rock. My rock came loaded with old living things that had to rot off (even after removing the obvious stuff). During the 1st 2 weeks ammonia was off the chart and was doing 100% water changes to keep it in check. Once this slowed a bit there was plenty of ammonia production from the remainder of the organics on the rock to complete the cycle on the rocks and for several weeks after with no addition of anything I was still getting some nitrate and phosphate production with only the rock. Most of the bacteria can survive on very little organic input and their populations will go down or up fairly rapidly with added bio-load. You'll hear about other talking about this type of rock "leaching" phosphates for months after the initial cure. I'm guessing if they are checking they would also see continued nitrate production as well. This is a very good indication there is still organic matter on the rocks that is decomposing and producing the phosphate and nitrates (after conversion from ammonia). If your rock is new and freshly cycled (from your post 3 or 4 weeks??) you probably don't need to add anything to the system there is plenty of food being made for the nitrifying bacteria. If your levels are steady state and not increasing or dropping you could add a bit of food to keep them going, but once established even at low population levels there are billions of bacteria remaining and will multiple up quickly with added bio-load.

 

[Reef_Hobbyist]

If your Pukani is anything like mine never needed to add additional organic matter to cycle the rock. My rock came loaded with old living things that had to rot off (even after removing the obvious stuff). During the 1st 2 weeks ammonia was off the chart and was doing 100% water changes to keep it in check. Once this slowed a bit there was plenty of ammonia production from the remainder of the organics on the rock to complete the cycle on the rocks and for several weeks after with no addition of anything I was still getting some nitrate and phosphate production with only the rock. Most of the bacteria can survive on very little organic input and their populations will go down or up fairly rapidly with added bio-load. You'll hear about other talking about this type of rock "leaching" phosphates for months after the initial cure. I'm guessing if they are checking they would also see continued nitrate production as well. This is a very good indication there is still organic matter on the rocks that is decomposing and producing the phosphate and nitrates (after conversion from ammonia). If your rock is new and freshly cycled (from your post 3 or 4 weeks??) you probably don't need to add anything to the system there is plenty of food being made for the nitrifying bacteria. If your levels are steady state and not increasing or dropping you could add a bit of food to keep them going, but once established even at low population levels there are billions of bacteria remaining and will multiple up quickly with added bio-load.

I had read a lot of similar experiences with Pukani before I started. I removed all the obvious organic stuff and did the RODI bath for 3 weeks. I didn't bother testing nutrient levels in the RODI because I wasn't sure I could trust results from marine test kits in freshwater. After I switched to saltwater and threw in the shrimp I was surprised at how quickly the high nitrate and phosphate levels appeared. That is primarily the reason I used the ammonia to be sure I could see it cycle.

However, thinking about what you just said, the curing process (break down of the organics) may have actually generated enough ammonia to kickoff the nitrogen cycle. The rock was probably already cycled before I even realized it. And I would suspect there is still enough organic breakdown at this point to keep the ammonia present at least to some extent.

I also find it interesting that one camp believes Pukani rock "absorbs" phosphates and then leaches them back out while the other camp believes the phosphates come from breakdown of organics hidden in the rock. Perhaps there is a third camp that thinks it is a combination of both?

Either way, it is beautiful rock and I can't wait to get it in my tank!!