Keeping fish in QT after treatment

Japtastic · Jun 9, 2018

My DT is in the fallow period after suspected Ich. Clearly this will last far longer than the 30 days QT treated with CP.

Now I know that Copper and CP only effect the free swimming stage of Ich but am I right in saying that 30 days in Copper or CP is enough to effect the Tomont producing viable Theronts?

Dr. Reef · Jun 9, 2018

i recommend a 21 day CP treatment followed by 2-3 weeks of observation. i discuss the whole process here
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...chloroquine-phosphate-cp.297799/#post-3642691

Japtastic · Jun 9, 2018

Thanks Dr. Reef, I understand your process now. There are a few different methods out there. The issue I have is that monitoring after the CP is removed from QT won't guarantee that Ich is gone as it may not show any signs on the fish but there may be viable Tomonts left? Hence the question above.

Edit: Forgot to mention that there could be Tomonts in my QT as seeded media was used from my DT as suggested in the advice here.

If there is no chance of viable Tomont's then removing the CP via water changes/carbon will be fine and they can stay in QT until the DT has passed the 76 day mark.

If there is a chance of viable Tomont's after the 30 days CP, then I guess my only option is to move the fish to a new sterile environment which will be a massive pain in the neck.

Hope I'm making sense and you understand my thought process.

Humblefish · Jun 9, 2018

In most cases, 30 days of Chloroquine or copper treatment will eliminate ich from a QT. (Velvet has a shorter/faster life cycle so 30 days of treatment - at therapeutic levels - is almost 100% effective.)

However, there are a few strains of ich which have been documented to take longer than 30 days for all of the theronts to be released from their tomonts - including the infamous 72 day variant. If one were to encounter such a strain then treating for 30 days would not be long enough. How oft encountered these strains are nobody really knows.

Dr. Reef · Jun 9, 2018

If you are to be sure you can do a 21 day treatment followed by 21 day observation and then another 21 day treatment followed by observation.
Its still not a 100% but nothing is in this hobby. Most likely you wont have any ich.

Japtastic · Jun 9, 2018

Thanks for your input chaps, helpful advice. Have there been any studies in to the way that CP, or Copper for that matter, affects Tomonts?

Dr. Reef · Jun 9, 2018

In humans chloroquine is used for malarial infections not as preventive medicine but rather to suppress the parasite.
In easy terms parasite breaks hemoglobin in blood through some stages to amino acid to consume as food. Chloroquine disrupts that process casuing parasite to starve itself to death.
I am not sure how it effects ich in a marine setup because chloroquine needs an acidic pH of 5 inside the blood to trap itself and bond to h+ to cause interruption.
Saltwater is no where near acidic not pH of 5. Not a marine biologist but maybe someone else can shed more light.

Nopy117 · Jun 9, 2018

@Humblefish I've heard of a possible "genetic sterilization" taking a place if a tomont is exposed to 30 days of therapeutic levels of copper, but i cant seem to find that claim again, What do you think?

Humblefish · Jun 9, 2018

Nopy117 said:
@Humblefish I've heard of a possible "genetic sterilization" taking a place if a tomont is exposed to 30 days of therapeutic levels of copper, but i cant seem to find that claim again, What do you think?

I’ve never heard/read of such a thing.

Dr. Reef · Jun 9, 2018

The only thing i know that kinda sterilize them is hyposalinity. It creates a low pressure vacuum around the parasite which causes them not to reproduce and eventually fade out.

Copper is just strictly poison and just like inverts cant handle it so does ich. Its strong enough to poison/kill inverts and parasites but not strong enough to kill fish (assuming at therapeutic levels)

Does anyone know how CP kills ich?

Humblefish · Jun 9, 2018

Dr. Reef said:
Does anyone know how CP kills ich?

Supposedly targets the free swimming stage and limited protomont eradication, same as copper.

I say supposedly because no official studies have ever been done. It is all just anecdotal.

Japtastic · Jun 10, 2018

Thanks chaps, good discussion. I imagine that one of the big universities or public aquariums will have done some research in to how CP actually kills Ich? That would be great to have a look at.

Because of my set of circumstances and I’m sure many others, where by I have moved infected fish from DT to QT for treatment and want to keep them in the QT for the whole 76 days while the DT stays fallow.

The perfect storm would be:

Tomont introduction from infected DT beneficial bacteria seeded media to QT.

Tomont lays dormant during the usual maximum of 30 days Copper or CP treatment.

Copper or CP removed. Tomont reproduces and reinfects fish with no visable symptoms for the remainder of the 76 days.

Fish return to DT along with Ich on day 77.

Based on this scenario, I believe it’s best to not use any media from the DT and instead use some decent beneficial bacteria in a bottle to start the QT.

Basically, the only way to have more success in this/my scenario is to move the fish after the 30 days CP treatment to a new sterile tank. Other than that I’m just gambling that I don’t have a strain of Ich that has Tomonts that hatch/reproduce during 31-72 days. If I’m going to all this effort, why would I gamble on that part?!

Please do let me know if any of the above doesn’t make sense!

Dr. Reef · Jun 10, 2018

Makes perfect sense. I discuss the contamination part of your concern in my guide to successful QT. In that guide:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/guide-to-setup-a-quarantine-tank-qt.297476/

In that guide you will notice that i never recommend people using water or rocks or even seeded filters/media in a qt.
I highly recommend starting qt with fresh saltwater and cycle it normally and using ceramic rings as your media to support bacterial growth.
Best thing you can do is after treatment moving fish to a brand new sterile cycled tank for observation.
I personally dont do that as i have a massive uv filter on my QT. I turn it on and 99% of the water goes through it after treatment for duration of observation which gives me the satisfaction of cured fish. Plus been practicing meds on fish for 20 years I kinda know how and what to look for that an average hobbyist may not notice.

Would love to know what CP does to ich. As what i know how it effects malarial parasite in human blood is not possible in saltwater setup. I hope someone does do a study one day.