Kessil LED vs Halide T5

[BoomCorals]

You should then more than appreciate telling your customers "this coral requires a lot of violet light for good color and growth" vs .."go buy some t5's"...

sorry bit of levity...

I agree.

 

[BoomCorals]

Now will it "stick".. any bets?

I hope it does. We will see in a few weeks!

 

[madweazl]

I'm not insinuating anything.. certainly don't question your observation..
but think of it this way.. Put a blue object under a red light and it looks black..
Put a florescent pigment under a light w/ no stimulating wavelength and it doesn't fluoresce..
If some of the new color was caused by flourecence it will be less in daylight and true pigments will show..most likely..
If I had to guess, it would be less blue but not brown under "daylight" .. but again, not really a main part of what I was trying to get at..


Like I posted earlier. forget it.. I was just curious..

Still recommend trying it under an atlantik w/ heavy boost in the purple/blue range.

What is your experience with the Orpheks and why are you recommending them? Of the Radion G4 Pro's diodes, 26% of them are in the range you're talking about while 23% of the V4s diodes are in the same range (430nm and below). You can get the same results in regard to spectrum with either light (and other LEDs as well).

 

[oreo54]

What is your experience with the Orpheks and why are you recommending them? Of the Radion G4 Pro's diodes, 26% of them are in the range you're talking about while 23% of the V4s diodes are in the same range (430nm and below). You can get the same results in regard to spectrum with either light (and other LEDs as well).

just came up..Not sure what Radion boom had..
The atlantik also has a more t5 "profile". Personal preference. Always thought "pucks" were a bad idea..
Channel breakdown had more adjustment possibilities..
Personal opinion. no more no less.
Doesn't matter which LEd is used as long as it matches parameters..

and other LEDs as well

Not totally convinced that is true..
IF violet pump emitters w/ broad blue phosphors are used it would be a lot more common..

Most "tubes" are just violet (UV) pumped RGB phosphors..
Most led's are blue pump w/ R/G phosphors..
And of course almost all "colored" LEd's are fairly narrow wavelength emitters..

similar yet quite different.
Isn't the key to it all.. to equalize each type?

The solid state nature of LEd's does allow some more "creativity" that is hard to emulate in other light sources..

but some of this is wishful thinking..


boom's little frag is like finding a mutant strain that one can experiment on..

WHY it didn't respond to any LEd's is more crucial then the it "didn't" color under LEd's.
Obviously didn't die.. Even t5's can't revive the dead..

 

[BoomCorals]

I had radion G4 pros.

If this frag becomes something I'm going to call it "the mutant".

 

[madweazl]

just came up..Not sure what Radion boom had..
...
boom's little frag is like finding a mutant strain that one can experiment on..

WHY it didn't respond to any LEd's is more crucial then the it "didn't" color under LEd's.
Obviously didn't die.. Even t5's can't revive the dead..

He likely left the spectrum (AB+ as I recall) be as his other corals were coloring as expected (or desired). Coral Labs did note that a few species failed to color up appropriately under the AB+ profile and recommended the PHX 14 profile for those. Who knows if BoomCorals specimen would do better under this profile and maybe at some point down the road, he'll have time (and/or desire) to give it a shot.

 

[oreo54]

He likely left the spectrum (AB+ as I recall) be as his other corals were coloring as expected (or desired). Coral Labs did note that a few species failed to color up appropriately under the AB+ profile and recommended the PHX 14 profile for those. Who knows if BoomCorals specimen would do better under this profile and maybe at some point down the road, he'll have time (and/or desire) to give it a shot.

G4 def should of had a shot w/ this..
Anyways one other nit.. WHY do they all insist on useless green diodes.. Cyan use cyan...Not green.. never green.. you got any whites, you have plenty of green..

 

[madweazl]

G4 def should of had a shot w/ this..
Anyways one other nit.. WHY do they all insist on useless green diodes.. Cyan use cyan...Not green.. never green.. you got any whites, you have plenty of green...

For the same reason it shows up in the T5s; so you can enjoy looking at your tank instead of a box of Windex. It also penetrates rather deep so it is something most corals we keep are used to dealing with in the wild.

 

[rtparty]

Why are some assuming it was the violet in the 420ish range? What if it was IR instead? Dana Riddle does have (or had) an experiment showing IR was crucial for corals to transport energy. Can't recall the specifics off hand but it was something like PSII to PSI?

If it is true that IR is indeed needed, LEDs have yet another diode they need to add. I believe Orphek is the only LED fixture to offer IR. As many will eventually figure out, another diode equals more power needed and yet another "redesign" for people to buy. Thus, negating any and all savings they claim to receive. That's another topic and not for this thread.

What if it was actual UV down in the 350-380nm range that LEDs don't provide? Do we need yet another diode added to the mainstream led fixtures? Again, more power will be required. All of the sudden the ~190w Radion jumps to ~230w to add in IR and true UV. How long do these LEDs last? True UV LEDs don't have a long lifespan so what happens when they die? Replace the entire puck? Sounds like bulb changes to me...[emoji3]

Man, a couple T5 bulbs or a single MH bulb seems a lot easier and simpler to me. And guess what? They flat out work. No guessing. No messing with spectrum. Sounds like a good deal to me.

 

[A. grandis]

BINGO, rtparty! ;Watching
T5s= UV, IR, real Actinic and uniformity. All the good stuff LEDs don't have. Period.
We've been talking about all that in many other threads...
Same about halides with a lot extra of each to give to the corals.
Watch also the video of Mr. Tullio Dell Aquila.
He was the one to introduce LEDs to the aquarium trade. I bet he doesn't have it as a primary source of light!!!
One can choose any combo of colors of the diodes and will never achieve the same results.
Properties are different: the nature of each type of light.
I do have LEDs all over my house and love it! Christmas lights too! Not over the tank!
No sense to argue anymore. Just enjoy the pictures boys!
Grandis.

 

[oreo54]

For the same reason it shows up in the T5s; so you can enjoy looking at your tank instead of a box of Windex. It also penetrates rather deep so it is something most corals we keep are used to dealing with in the wild.

Cyan is of course blue/green and highly eye visible..A lot of "green" LED's for stop lights are really cyan though more in the pred. green range of cyan ..

http://www.3reef.com/threads/my-rap...l-biocube-rapid-violet-is-here.128277/page-14

LIME and some cyan..

 

[oreo54]

14740K est...

One can choose any combo of colors of the diodes and will never achieve the same results.
Properties are different: the nature of each type of light.

not buying it.. No magic photons...
This is a relatively simple build in LED's
Well not quite "simple"

* MIXING LIST
----------------------------------------
LED UV (400nm) [120°] x1
LED RoyalBlue (450nm) [120°] x1
LED Blue (470nm) [120°] x1
LED Blue (480nm) [120°] x1
LED Cyan (500nm) [120°] x1
LED Green (540nm) [120°] x3
LED Red (620nm) [120°] x2
----------------------------------------

* SIMULATION DATA
----------------------------------------
Luminous flux : 562 lm
Radiant flux : 2,591 mW
PPF : 10.4 umol/s
TCP : 14710 K
CRI : 62
λp : 473 nm
Color : #96A9FF

ATI Coral plus

Approximate color temperature: 15000K+.

 

[Unregistered User]

Following, to remind myself to read thread tomorrow night.

 

[oreo54]

ATI True actinic

* MIXING LIST
----------------------------------------
LED UV (400nm) [120°] x1
LED UV (410nm) [120°] x1
LED Violet (420nm) [120°] x1
LED Violet (430nm) [120°] x1
LED RoyalBlue (440nm) [120°] x1
LED Amber (580nm) [120°] x1
----------------------------------------

* SIMULATION DATA

----
Luminous flux : 75.7 lm
Radiant flux : 2,201 mW
PPF : 7.4 umol/s
TCP : ‑ K
CRI : ‑
λp : 413 nm
Color : #6833FF

 

[A. grandis]

not buying it.. No magic photons...
This is a relatively simple build in LED's
ATI Coral plus

The reason why is because of the OTHER PROPERTIES I mentioned that LEDs simply don't have, oreo.
That's what I've been talking about all the time for years... Forget "spectrum", "PAR", "PUR", "intensity". You can apply those terms to one specific source and they will be read differently from another source. And they are all interconnected. The presence of UV, IR and other will help make the differences too.
Different qualities of the lights. The nature of the LEDs isn't the same as the T5s and MHs. We all know and can see that!
If you grab any combination of colors for any LED fixture to resemble any T5, MH or even the Sun, still not gonna be able to supply what the others do.
The nature of diodes is what determinate the difference. What really the corals see and what matters to their lives.

Different between T5s and MHs, as we know also.
Different qualities for different applications.

If Dr. Sanjay can't explain. If Mr.Tullio Dell Aquila can't explain (or they know and they aren't telling us...). If anyone can't explain really, but the actual comparison shows results like we all see again and again and has been reported by many, the nature of the sources is what the difference is. It is totally evident when one see LED tanks and T5 or MH tank. Even the kids here can see the difference. Brutal difference IMHO.

There are many very nice tanks illuminated by LEDs, but there is aways a lack of "something".
I have a friend that actually was the one that gave me the boost to try LEDs. After I told him it didn't work for me he told me: "Yeah, LEDs are ok, but I really miss my old T5s. There is something missing we can tell."

I really wish I could be smart enough to put into science, but like I've said... I believe that even Dr. Sanjay can't figure that out.
It's the other qualities besides "PAR", "intensity" and the "spectrum". Let me tell you more... the PAR from LEDs aren't the same as the PAR from T5s, nor MHs IMO. Don't ask me to explain. If I was smart enough to figure out I would already published that or I wouldn't be here in this forum.

Every time I see aquariums with LEDs I can't help but think how much better it would be with some T5s or halides over it.
Change your light system and you will also see what I'm talking about.
IMHO halides and T5s are lights for serious reefers.

Grandis.

 

[oreo54]

Sounds more like a religion...............

Look t5's and MH ARE easy..but that isn't really my "subjective" point here..

the PAR from LEDs aren't the same as the PAR from T5s, nor MHs IMO. Don't ask me to explain.

you know I was going to, err, take issue w/ that statement but since the universe is not completely solved I'll just leave it at is.

no can't resist.. maybe their photons go through a trans warp conduit picking up an quantum wave pattern undetectable to our instruments .............please take this as a simple ribbing..

Can't deny what actually isn't proven..so what you say isn't wrong..just doesn't match any physics that I know of.

There is one thing:
Photon capture is not 100% .. borders on something like 25-30% so tubes being fairly congruence will favor capturing all spectrum over its entire field w/ a bit more efficiency than broken or less diffuse sources..
But diffusion panels and linear arrays fix most of that..
Distribution effects,, NOT spectrum.
This gets touched upon a bit w/ wave action and spectrum blending and strobing..
shimmer effects..

simple test.. put white light over a tank and expose corals on one side to a shaking diffraction grating.. see if there is a difference..
One side homogeneous light. the other prismatic bandwidth light.

 

[A. grandis]

Sounds more like a religion...............

Ok, then tell me what is the god?
Grandis.

 

[A. grandis]

My science explanation is: clinic eye.
To observe your system and nature is the best you can do to the inhabitants of your system.
So many times we see numbers going crazy and the "science" telling you to change chemistry, but the whole thing is well stablished and growing healthy. I prefer to trust my "clinic eye" than science in that sense.
How many times you see science telling us to "change this and that" because now they discover something "different and that" and it isn't the way anymore.
That still didn't happen to the halides nor to the T5s. Not yet.

Grandis.

 

[oreo54]

Every day I see the sun go around the earth.....................


Hey, science is far from perfect. Because its done by people.. Sometimes colored by their own beliefs and observations of what seems to work..


There is plenty of bad science as well as false assumptions........or confusing cause w/ effect..
We have different philosophies..

 

[A. grandis]

Sounds more like a religion...............

Look t5's and MH ARE easy..but that isn't really my "subjective" point here..



you know I was going to, err, take issue w/ that statement but since the universe is not completely solved I'll just leave it at is.

no can't resist.. maybe their photons go through a trans warp conduit picking up an quantum wave pattern undetectable to our instruments .............please take this as a simple ribbing..

Can't deny what actually isn't proven..so what you say isn't wrong..just doesn't match any physics that I know of.

There is one thing:
Photon capture is not 100% .. borders on something like 25-30% so tubes being fairly congruence will favor capturing all spectrum over its entire field w/ a bit more efficiency than broken or less diffuse sources..
But diffusion panels and linear arrays fix most of that..
Distribution effects,, NOT spectrum.
This gets touched upon a bit w/ wave action and spectrum blending and strobing..
shimmer effects..

simple test.. put white light over a tank and expose corals on one side to a shaking diffraction grating.. see if there is a difference..
One side homogeneous light. the other prismatic bandwidth light.

I told you... don't ask me to explain! LOL!
The reason they have different PAR measurers for MH/T5s and the "full spectrum" for LEDs shows us there is a difference already.
Ok... the lenses, diffusers and all that plays with the measurements too, but I don't have to worry about all that cause I don't play with LEDs anyways.

I'm glad that we are actually talking about different objects and that means: light fixtures, ballasts and bulbs. Also PAR measurers.
Simple as that: get that one put here. Ge the other one and lets compare.
Oh, they give different results. This one better than the other! Throw the LEDs away. No good. ;Wideyed
Not religion when you see it with your own eyes, like Boom is reporting.
He isn't lying.

Man, I like those Acros!

Grandis.