Lanthanum Chloride Questions

[Breadman03]

I also replace one large 36” filter bag every 2 weeks.

This may be the source. Do you actively feed aquarium water through the sock or does it act simply as a containment area where the LACL is being dosed? If you are feeding water through it, there is a good chance it is retaining detritus that is breaking down and releasing nutrients. If that's the case, I'd suggest changing the socks every 3 days, changing nothing else, and seeing how that impacts your nutrients.

 

[Reefahholic]

Hi Reefahholic,
Exactly what happens in my tank, knock it down and the next day it’s right back up. Frustrating.

Ron

Indeed. Very frustrating!

 

[Reefahholic]

So if the rock isn’t responsible for leaching, and I’ve gone a week or more without feeding anything and it’s back on a daily basis, where could it be coming from? I know it’s not the sand. I’ve used Tropic Eden Reef Flakes for years now. Never had or heard of any issues. So that leaves the PVC pipe, return pump, silicone seams, and overflow box. I think it’s unlikely to be any of those.

I know when my previous rock was leaching- it did the exact same thing for about 5-6 months. Then one day it just started coming down. Next thing I know- poof it was all gone. A long hard battle ended so abruptly. It was a big relief!

After that it was very easy to keep the PO4 in the range I wanted. In fact, at times I needed to feed very heavy to keep the level up. It never elevated over 0.1


If this current situation continues for another week, I’ll pull all my frags off the rocks and treat the rock in a vat with SeaKlear until it stops leaching. At least then I can really get down to business w/o stressing the corals. I’ll Vlog the entire process.

 

[Rst]

This may be the source. Do you actively feed aquarium water through the sock or does it act simply as a containment area where the LACL is being dosed? If you are feeding water through it, there is a good chance it is retaining detritus that is breaking down and releasing nutrients. If that's the case, I'd suggest changing the socks every 3 days, changing nothing else, and seeing how that impacts your nutrients.

Hi Breadman,
I am not exactly clear on how to answer your sock question. My setup is somewhat complicated.

In my case, my display tank’s return pipe gravity feeds to the first compartment of my sump tank where it’s flow is 1st filtered with a layer of filter floss. For the lanthanum, I had to purchase a custom 1ft x 1ft x 36” high glass tank to house the filter sock sitting beside my sump. This sock is then fed by a dedicated submersible pump located in the second of my sump tank’s 3 compartments. Part of the sump’s 2nd compartment’s flow carries on to the sump’s 3rd compartment to the skimmer and then pumps back to the display tank and the other part feeds the filter sock and lanthanum drip and then gravity fed back to the sump’s 3rd compartment and then also pumps back to the display tank.

Sorry for such a complicated answer, but I wanted to make sure I gave an accurate picture of my setup.
Note that replacing the 36” filter sock every 3 days instead of waiting over 2 weeks for the sock to fully clog, would be expensive and somewhat wasteful.

Thanks for helping, Ron

 

[Rst]

So if the rock isn’t responsible for leaching, and I’ve gone a week or more without feeding anything and it’s back on a daily basis, where could it be coming from? I know it’s not the sand. I’ve used Tropic Eden Reef Flakes for years now. Never had or heard of any issues. So that leaves the PVC pipe, return pump, silicone seams, and overflow box. I think it’s unlikely to be any of those.

I know when my previous rock was leaching- it did the exact same thing for about 5-6 months. Then one day it just started coming down. Next thing I know- poof it was all gone. A long hard battle ended so abruptly. It was a big relief!

After that it was very easy to keep the PO4 in the range I wanted. In fact, at times I needed to feed very heavy to keep the level up. It never elevated over 0.1


If this current situation continues for another week, I’ll pull all my frags off the rocks and treat the rock in a vat with SeaKlear until it stops leaching. At least then I can really get down to business w/o stressing the corals. I’ll Vlog the entire process.

So there’s hope I might only need to heavily daily dose lanthanum for only 6 more months. Will be following your results closely.

 

[Reefahholic]

So there’s hope I might only need to heavily daily dose lanthanum for only 6 more months. Will be following your results closely.

This is what battling leaching rocks looks like:



I guess I’ll pull out the big gun....SeaKlear- treat out of the tank. Gotta pull the frags off the rocks. :-(

 

[Rst]

This is what battling leaching rocks looks like:



I guess I’ll pull out the big gun....SeaKlear- treat out of the tank. Gotta pull the frags off the rocks. :-(

Wow drastic measures! I can’t imagine taking all my corals out. Most are very attached or part of my rock structures. Hope your rocks are the source of your high phosphates. Let us know.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Im leery of it as commonly, it removes phosphate from swimming pools but it also blocks +ion exchange channels for things such as calcium. It is supposed to aid in phosphate reduction but has an adverse effect on oxygen levels for livestock.

 

[Reefahholic]

Wow drastic measures! I can’t imagine taking all my corals out. Most are very attached or part of my rock structures. Hope your rocks are the source of your high phosphates. Let us know.

Yeah tank is new. I’m still trying to determine if the rocks themselves are leaching or if they just absorbed the free PO4 in the water column and are leaching it back out. I think that’s what Randy thought and I’d lean in that direction because he’s the expert. I’ve had these rocks before (Marco rocks) and when I first got them about 8 years ago, I put them in a vat to cure and was prepared to nuke them with LaCI and they never gave me high readings. The rock looks identical now as they did 8 years ago.

 

[Reefahholic]

Im leery of it as commonly, it removes phosphate from swimming pools but it also blocks +ion exchange channels for things such as calcium. It is supposed to aid in phosphate reduction but has an adverse effect on oxygen levels for livestock.

I think it can affect oxygen levels. I haven’t had any real problems other than a low PH after treatment. You just need to go slow and not drop the level too much. Gotta really observe everything in the tank.

Like I said, that last 36 drops of RX that I dosed (in 25/G) did deflate my anemone and also stripped a lot of color out of the corals. No deaths though. I purposely went aggressive with a huge dose just to see how hard it would impact the tank and if I could < the PO4 by more than half without affecting the ALK level.

I’m not sure if you can see in the picture, it only < the PO4 to 0.44 by the next morning. I was so frustrated. You almost feel helpless. It’s the feeling of helplessness that will make you pull corals off rocks and absolutely blast that rock in a vat with SeaKlear. Or at least that’s where it drives me because I know I can quickly eliminate the problem vs waiting 6 months.

Dosing 1 ML LaCI in your tank vs 20 ML in a vat- ahh yeah...you take the bull by the horns. Ha Ha!

Anyway, by the time I got home that night and tested again- It got really interesting. I was shocked. PO4 had significantly dropped all the way to 0.07. I couldn’t believe it. I know from past experiences with LaCI that it has a lag affect sometimes, but I’ve never seen it as far out as 24 hrs later. I’d only experienced 12-14 hr lag times. If the rocks were leaching, I’m doubtful it would have dropped that much as I fought that battle on my 105/G for 5-6 months with SeaKlear and I couldn’t ever get it that low without the PO4 immediately coming back in a few hours or the same day.

Of course, I think Randy was right.

Ohh FWIW, that big dose never touched my ALK level. Tested before and after. 9.7 DKH pre and post. I’m not saying it won’t and if you go bigger it probably will, but with this volume of water and the 36 drops- no affect on ALK.

 

[Rst]

I think it can affect oxygen levels. I haven’t had any real problems other than a low PH after treatment. You just need to go slow and not drop the level too much. Gotta really observe everything in the tank.

Like I said, that last 36 drops of RX that I dosed (in 25/G) did deflate my anemone and also stripped a lot of color out of the corals. No deaths though. I purposely went aggressive with a huge dose just to see how hard it would impact the tank and if I could < the PO4 by more than half without affecting the ALK level.

I’m not sure if you can see in the picture, it only < the PO4 to 0.44 by the next morning. I was so frustrated. You almost feel helpless. It’s the feeling of helplessness that will make you pull corals off rocks and absolutely blast that rock in a vat with SeaKlear. Or at least that’s where it drives me because I know I can quickly eliminate the problem vs waiting 6 months.

Dosing 1 ML LaCI in your tank vs 20 ML in a vat- ahh yeah...you take the bull by the horns. Ha Ha!

Anyway, by the time I got home that night and tested again- It got really interesting. I was shocked. PO4 had significantly dropped all the way to 0.07. I couldn’t believe it. I know from past experiences with LaCI that it has a lag affect sometimes, but I’ve never seen it as far out as 24 hrs later. I’d only experienced 12-14 hr lag times. If the rocks were leaching, I’m doubtful it would have dropped that much as I fought that battle on my 105/G for 5-6 months with SeaKlear and I couldn’t ever get it that low without the PO4 immediately coming back in a few hours or the same day.

Of course, I think Randy was right.

Ohh FWIW, that big dose never touched my ALK level. Tested before and after. 9.7 DKH pre and post. I’m not saying it won’t and if you go bigger it probably will, but with this volume of water and the 36 drops- no affect on ALK.

It will be interesting to find out what you need to do to keep it low from now on.

 

[rkpetersen]

I wonder if I will ever suck out it out of my rock. Is sucking it all out really possible? If it takes a couple of years, I am going to need a lot more Lanthanum and many more 5 micron filter bags.
I also replace one large 36” filter bag every 2 weeks. Currently dosing 50 to 60 ml per week in a 150 gallon system.

So far (approximately 45 days so far), if I stop dosing Lanthanum for even 1 day, it jumps back up! Even though I am dosing daily, it still goings up slowly every day.

I think it should be possible to eventually remove all the phosphate leaching out of your rocks. Here's why I think it can be done. I used all dry rock for a recent tank startup, some of which like pukani are known to leach a lot of phosphate at times. I pretreated all of the rock for weeks in a brute in multiple stages, starting with muriatic acid baths, then lanthanum chloride baths, than full bacterial cycling using ammonium chloride as the food source. When I started the DT with these rocks, the phosphorus level never rose at all until I had a decent amount of livestock, and I've had no nuisance algae problems at all.

Also agree with the comment about changing filter socks more often; brs did some tests that showed that after 3 days or so uncleaned they start to leach nutrients back into the water.

 

[Reefahholic]

It may be done. If the rocks are indeed leaching, it can persist for months. Hopefully that’s not the case. I’ll test when I get home.

 

[Rst]

I think it should be possible to eventually remove all the phosphate leaching out of your rocks. Here's why I think it can be done. I used all dry rock for a recent tank startup, some of which like pukani are known to leach a lot of phosphate at times. I pretreated all of the rock for weeks in a brute in multiple stages, starting with muriatic acid baths, then lanthanum chloride baths, than full bacterial cycling using ammonium chloride as the food source. When I started the DT with these rocks, the phosphorus level never rose at all until I had a decent amount of livestock, and I've had no nuisance algae problems at all.

Also agree with the comment about changing filter socks more often; brs did some tests that showed that after 3 days or so uncleaned they start to leach nutrients back into the water.

It is good to know that pretreating rocks before starting a new tank will alleviate phosphate problems. But for us with existing DT running for years already, such measures aren’t practical & other solutions are needed. For me, the lanthanum solution so far is in question. I am not giving up just yet unless the causes are determined and I know how to make necessary adjustments.
In terms of cleaning out or replacing filter socks every 3 days, I can agree that this would be better. Unfortunately due to the relatively high cost ($10 for 5 micron + $10 for the 100 micron. I double bag for every usage) and then wasting and not using the still clean upper 80% portion of the 36” long x 7” bag in only 3 days, is very hard to swallow. In addition, trying to clean these bags after use is so hard that buying new bags is really the only realistic solution.
Thanks again for your experience and suggestions.
Ron

 

[Reefahholic]

I think it should be possible to eventually remove all the phosphate leaching out of your rocks. Here's why I think it can be done. I used all dry rock for a recent tank startup, some of which like pukani are known to leach a lot of phosphate at times. I pretreated all of the rock for weeks in a brute in multiple stages, starting with muriatic acid baths, then lanthanum chloride baths, than full bacterial cycling using ammonium chloride as the food source. When I started the DT with these rocks, the phosphorus level never rose at all until I had a decent amount of livestock, and I've had no nuisance algae problems at all.

Also agree with the comment about changing filter socks more often; brs did some tests that showed that after 3 days or so uncleaned they start to leach nutrients back into the water.

You are correct sir. I think that when you let the rocks cure and treat with LACI until you test 0 ppb on a ULR for at least a good week, you should be good to go.

The key is to keep treating and let it keep leaching out until it finishes.

 

[Reefahholic]

It is good to know that pretreating rocks before starting a new tank will alleviate phosphate problems. But for us with existing DT running for years already, such measures aren’t practical & other solutions are needed. For me, the lanthanum solution so far is in question. I am not giving up just yet unless the causes are determined and I know how to make necessary adjustments.
In terms of cleaning out or replacing filter socks every 3 days, I can agree that this would be better. Unfortunately due to the relatively high cost ($10 for 5 micron + $10 for the 100 micron. I double bag for every usage) and then wasting and not using the still clean upper 80% portion of the 36” long x 7” bag in only 3 days, is very hard to swallow. In addition, trying to clean these bags after use is so hard that buying new bags is really the only realistic solution.
Thanks again for your experience and suggestions.
Ron

If your tank has been running for years, then the rocks shouldn’t be leaching unless they’re absorbing the free PO4 that’s available in the water column. It shouldn’t be the rocks themselves after this length of time.

Now if you told me you recently setup a tank with some purple man-made rock and all of a sudden your PO4 was reading 0.5 - 1.0+ and you haven’t been feeding- I’ll assume at that point that the rocks are leaching and not just absorbing Calcium Phosphate from the water column.

Look...go to 9:20 on this video:

 

[Reefahholic]

Ok, just tested.

Yesterday evening after the big dose = 0.07

Today after work same time = 0.34

I’m actually kinda surprised it’s not higher. I’m gonna wait a day before I dose and see what it is tomorrow afternoon.

 

[crs751]

What is your method for dosing this in your display tank? I've read in other posts that users dose it into a filter sock or floss of some sort. Do you just add a couple drops of the solution in the water column? Thanks.

 

[Reefahholic]

What is your method for dosing this in your display tank? I've read in other posts that users dose it into a filter sock or floss of some sort. Do you just add a couple drops of the solution in the water column? Thanks.

I think it’s best to dose into a 10 micron felt sock. That’s how most people do it including myself. I haven’t seen any evidence that this is any better than just dosing the water. We do know that when Lanthanum binds to Phosphate it releases flocculant. These tiny particles have been rumored to cause issues in the aquarium. Issues like the fishes gills getting clogged which leads to rapid breathing or death. I’ve also heard it can build up over time and potentially be toxic. I have not had this happen and I’m not sure if there’s any evidence for it other than anecdotal. It does seem logical to catch the flocculant in a filter sock which is why I do it. However, I have dosed in the skimmer neck, overflow box, and in the return section of the sump. Probably not a great idea, but I enjoy testing things for myself. I’ve always went fairly slow until recently when I purposely dosed aggressively because I was frustrated and wanted to see just how far I could push the limit. I will tell you from experience that if you go too fast, the corals will have a marked color loss, and you can definitely kill acropora or other sensitive species. I didn’t have any acros (new tank), but I’m pretty sure they’d be RTN’ed right now by observing the other corals. When you go too fast, it drops the PH and I think the oxygen level. It also stripped the water pretty bad. I noticed that after that big dose heavy diatoms appeared on the sandbed and the rocks despite the lowest phosphate level I’ve observed since the tank has been up. So that tells you a lot right there. This is only a 25/G tank with some low end corals so I’m able to experiment a little. Other than going too fast, I’ve had great success with Lanthanum. Obviously if you can lower your PO4 naturally- by all means do it that way, but for any desperate reefers fighting the daily grind of leaching rocks it’s another option.

Maybe Randy can weigh in on some of the things I’ve mentioned above. He may know of actual studies about LaCI that fully support what is rumored about flocculant. I’m not sure. Most of us that dose it would rather not, but IMO it is a great tool to lower extremely high PO4 levels especially for those with large systems.

 

[d-man]

Does it have to be a 5micron bag? Why not say 100 micron?