Lanthanum stable in vinegar/ETOH?

[Ragnar]

I'm wondering if LaCl is ok to mix in with a vinegar/vodka solution that I'm currently using for nitrate control? I use 900ml vinegar with 100ml Vodka. I'm guessing the ethanol is ok, not sure about the acidity of the vinegar?

Thanks

John

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

How much lanthanum?

The solubility limit of lanthanum acetate is about 17 grams per 100 mL of fluid.

 

[Ragnar]

It's LaCl3 hydrate, 11%, I'd be adding about 20ml of that solution to a liter of my carbon mix

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

That should be fine. There's nothing that can happen except precipitation, and if you do not see solids rapidly forming, it is good to go.

 

[Ragnar]

Terrific! Thanks much for your help!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

You're welcome.

Happy Halloween!

 

[NeverlosT]

I may be wrong, but I think it would be wise to consider the consequences of dosing lanthanum in your normal dosing regiment. lanthanum is added to the tank and then forms lanthanum phosphate and precipitates out of solution (lowering your phosphates). I have heard, and in my experience, the precipitate is harmful to coral and fish, so it must be removed from the water before it gets up into the tank. So if you are considering adding it to your dosing regime, ensure that you are doing so in a fashion that captures the precipitate (like dosing it into a 1 micron sock or something).

Just my 0.02.

 

[Cory]

Not only that but it reduces alkalinity too. So be careful with it.

 

[Ragnar]

Thanks...I've been intermittently dosing lanthanum for 8 years and, when done carefully, seems to be an economical way to keep a lid on phosphates in a very heavily fed system. Early on I think it helped me turn the tide on a former "tank of the month" that was suffering from old tank syndrome. Agree that one should attempt to keep the precipitate out of the display, using a reactor or a 5 micron sock or both. I've not found huge alkalinity issues when using it to maintain low levels but agree you need to nudge up supplementation when attempting to correct very high levels of phosphate.

John

 

[Ragnar]

Follow up question....20ml LaCl3 10% in 900cc vinegar + 100cc vodka looks like skim milk.

Is this expected? Maybe too much lanthanum?

Thanks

John

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

That suggests it didn't stay dissolved. Maybe the ethanol in the vodka was enough to reduce the solubility. I'm a bit surprised that what is effectively 1 g of lanthanum metal couldn't stay dissolved in that solution, but I think it looks like a problem.

 

[Ragnar]

I have no particular logic behind adding ethanol to my carbon cocktail, would straight vinegar be better?

Maybe I'll give that a try, will adjust the amount of vinegar accordingly

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I have no particular logic behind adding ethanol to my carbon cocktail, would straight vinegar be better?

Maybe I'll give that a try, will adjust the amount of vinegar accordingly

Many people like a mix of vinegar and vodka. I use straight vinegar, but both work well.

 

[Ragnar]

Here's some interesting yet completely unscientific observations.

I took straight vinegar and added 10ml of 10% LaCl3 to 300 ml....skim milk which settled to a white precipitate.

Similar results with the cheap-o vodka.

I had some NoPOx sitting around....which easily dissolved the Lanthanum without precipitate.

Could it be phosphates (or something) in the diluting water? I'd assume the NoPOx is made with RO or distilled water....doubt the vinegar and cheap vodka can claim the same?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Curious. Thanks for doing the experiment.

I'm not sure what is forming. It may not be the same material in the case of vodka and vinegar. Possibilities include lanthanum carbonate, lanthanum chloride (in the vodka), lanthanum acetate (in the vinegar), lanthanum oxide or hydroxide (less likely in a low pH solution). It is unlikely there's enough phosphate present to precipitate significant lanthanum phosphate, but perhaps there is.

NOPOX is somewhat more dilute than your mixture so may allow more lanthanum to stay dissolved.

It is also possible that what is precipitating is not actually lanthanum, but some other cation in it.

 

[p0st]

Despite the age of this thread, thanks @Randy Holmes-Farley and @Ragnar for sharing your experiences! I also want to add Lanthanum Chloride to my Vodka/Vinegar mix (40/60) and I'll first try to see if it turns milky before adding a bunch to 2000ml of mix haha.

If in the mean time (5 years) you have found out new stuff please leave a reply!

 

[Futuretotm]

I am liking this thread. I'd would be nice to dose vodka/vinegar/lanthanum via one solution!

 

[Ragnar]

I gave up after the attempt above. I still use Lanthanum sparingly, but find that getting to that “sweet spot” with carbon dosing keeps both phosphate and nitrate low by itself. I get great bacterial growth on a big filter sock which exports nutrients into the washing machine