That's true. Although I'm not sure whether alk consumption went up due to corals getting larger or the LEDs. What I can definitively say is that swapping to LEDs has not seemed to hurt my SPS growth.
LED or Metal Halide
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Haha. You’re too modest! If I remember correctly the alk dosing was pretty dialed in and the alkatronic was showing very stable Alk, then the very next day after the swap and for the whole week after the levels were dropping from more consumption that was quite flat the week before?
I think it was a couple weeks after the swap when the alk consumption took off. I actually had the lights set for a 85% acclimation over 14 days; in other words, I PAR matched and then dropped to 85% acclimation program.
It is the 210 and I added manual correction of over 15%. Best I could find online was to multiply everything by 1.08 and I went 1.15. Even giving the Radions a sizeable bump they still couldn't catch up. This is normal though IME. Been testing lights for close to 14 years now.That's fascinating. What PAR meter did you use by the way? If it was the original Apogee Sensor/Seneye, I'm wondering if the Radion Blues were too blue-heavy and needed manual PAR correction.
I can't state this enough though, PAR is a only a small part and way less important than people think. My LPS are all sitting well over the 150 range that people say max should be. The blastos on the top right that are sitting at over 350 PAR are beyond happy now. Everything in my tank has responded super well thankfully. First couple days I had some micromussa lords that weren't happy and now they are loving life. I am watching alk closely.
My opinion is corals don't like high PAR from LEDs because it is so focused, laser beam style. Tullio from Reef Brite had some great things to say about this when I talked to him before switching lights.
I have always kept corals in high par from LEDs. I hear this from time to time but am unsure why my systems have been different. Perhaps flow has something to do with it but acros is 500-600 led par have done great for me, lps in 300 par from
Leds no problem and even kept some hammers for years in around 500.
BradB
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Wow! I'm shocked this thread made it to page 5 without bloodshed.
I've switched from MH to LEDs, my thoughts:
1) If you are comparing x dollars worth of LEDs to x dollars worth of MH over a long period of time, or y watts of LEDs to y Watts of MH, LED probably wins hands down - especially if you electric cost is high and your are on the cheaper side. MH wins in a "money-is-no-object" situation if you value spectrum, growth and color over dimming, lack of heat, smaller fixtures, etc. If you pick MH (or T5, VHO etc.) and cheap out by not replacing bulbs as often as you should, LED wins hands down.
2) People might get mad at this, but light is light. If you have the same spectrum, intensity and temperature it doesn't matter if it comes from LED, MH or anything else. MH bulbs with spectrums designed to be cheap look like daylight and generally don't see aquarium use. Bulbs made for aquariums have spectrums that have proven over years (if not decades) to either grow corals well or give good coloration. LEDs give enormous flexibility with spectrum, but tuning spectrums for manufacturers (or DIY people) is less well established. Just royal blue, cool blue and neutral white LEDs give a decent spectrum cheaply but it is probably inferior MH bulbs - and other LEDs in the wrong amounts make things worse not better.
3) Lots of things, such Alk level and stability, nutrient levels, and flow are much more important than light for growth rate and color.
4) Temperature is relevant. I suspect some people switched their water temperature from 82F with halides to 76F with LEDs and complained their growth slowed.
I think it is worth the time for anyone considering both to design a system both ways (at least on paper) and compare the costs over 10 years.
I've switched from MH to LEDs, my thoughts:
1) If you are comparing x dollars worth of LEDs to x dollars worth of MH over a long period of time, or y watts of LEDs to y Watts of MH, LED probably wins hands down - especially if you electric cost is high and your are on the cheaper side. MH wins in a "money-is-no-object" situation if you value spectrum, growth and color over dimming, lack of heat, smaller fixtures, etc. If you pick MH (or T5, VHO etc.) and cheap out by not replacing bulbs as often as you should, LED wins hands down.
2) People might get mad at this, but light is light. If you have the same spectrum, intensity and temperature it doesn't matter if it comes from LED, MH or anything else. MH bulbs with spectrums designed to be cheap look like daylight and generally don't see aquarium use. Bulbs made for aquariums have spectrums that have proven over years (if not decades) to either grow corals well or give good coloration. LEDs give enormous flexibility with spectrum, but tuning spectrums for manufacturers (or DIY people) is less well established. Just royal blue, cool blue and neutral white LEDs give a decent spectrum cheaply but it is probably inferior MH bulbs - and other LEDs in the wrong amounts make things worse not better.
3) Lots of things, such Alk level and stability, nutrient levels, and flow are much more important than light for growth rate and color.
4) Temperature is relevant. I suspect some people switched their water temperature from 82F with halides to 76F with LEDs and complained their growth slowed.
I think it is worth the time for anyone considering both to design a system both ways (at least on paper) and compare the costs over 10 years.
Five pages of definitive answers, but the only truth is that it depends. It depends on the LEDs. It depends on the Halides. It depends on the corals. It depends on a lot of things. Some acropora, since we are in the SPS section, will not care what light you have them under. Some will care a lot. Some won't care if you have a bad Halide bulb or a good one. Some won't care if you have crap diodes or good ones. The answer in always in the details. When digging into the details and taking out the corals that do well under good LEDs, there are still some that will respond better to MH both with intensity and spectrum. ...but do you want to keep those types of acropora? That is another detail that matters.
For me, I want to be able to keep any acropora at any time. I keep a lot of smoothies that do seem to do better under MH (generally... again, details where some do not care at all). I have large tanks and there is no savings in electricity (MH can be way cheaper on larger tanks) or panel costs vs. bulbs when you factor in a reasonable life span of a panel. Heat is no issue for me. If I had smaller tanks, heat could be an issue. If I kept a lot of softies or LPS, then that could be different. When breaking all of this down, I choose MH for pure performance as the only factor since everything else is a push, at best.
FWIW - I am using best of breed MH setup with 14k Phoneix and Radiums on m80 and also tried what most consider to be best of breed LEDs. There is no comparing a Radion xr30 to a Odyssea MH setup which is like comparing a Ferrari to a Fiero, or vice versa. I do think that a good LED would crush a cheap MH setup and a good Mh setup will crush a bad LED setup.
For me, I want to be able to keep any acropora at any time. I keep a lot of smoothies that do seem to do better under MH (generally... again, details where some do not care at all). I have large tanks and there is no savings in electricity (MH can be way cheaper on larger tanks) or panel costs vs. bulbs when you factor in a reasonable life span of a panel. Heat is no issue for me. If I had smaller tanks, heat could be an issue. If I kept a lot of softies or LPS, then that could be different. When breaking all of this down, I choose MH for pure performance as the only factor since everything else is a push, at best.
FWIW - I am using best of breed MH setup with 14k Phoneix and Radiums on m80 and also tried what most consider to be best of breed LEDs. There is no comparing a Radion xr30 to a Odyssea MH setup which is like comparing a Ferrari to a Fiero, or vice versa. I do think that a good LED would crush a cheap MH setup and a good Mh setup will crush a bad LED setup.
BradB
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As a DIY person, I've experimented with real UV and found it less than desirable, especially pushing towards natural sunlight values. It will burn low light corals much faster than anything else, it doesn't grow as well as royal blue, it is invisible to the eye. It does fluoresce, in many cases different pigments than royal blue, but this is subtle, even at natural sunlight levels.
Most MH bulbs and fixtures filter out most of the UV anyway.
I do think the broader 400nm-500nm in some MHs is superior to the 445nm + 475nm spikes of LEDs, although some good MH bulbs are spikey too.
None of that is really true. Bulbs do no filter out most of the UVA - much is still there from about 350nm up that the glass does not filter and the true UV from 370 to 399 is one of the reasons why many pros think that good MH bulbs are still so effective.. this stuff is good for corals where UVB (below 350nm) is not. UV diodes are not the same as UV from a mercury bulb... both with intensity and narrowness of spectrum and the diodes degrade so fast you are always working with a moving target. True UV diodes have a long way to go. MH also emits IR which helps with Emerson Effect for energy usage in photosystems. Some of the more advanced Euro LED panels have both true UV (not just violet advertised as UV) and also IR... they will be coming to a fixture near you when they figure out how to make them last since they have such short lifespans.
I am one of the ones that does not want to hear about light being light or photons being photons unless it is from a quantum physicist. Given that a quantum is mostly theoretical and infinite and there is no evidence that one photon was ever the same as another, it is not responsible to say that one light is the same as another, IMO. A person is a person, right? Snowflake is a snowflake? Smart people think about, and post about, the differences.
I am one of the ones that does not want to hear about light being light or photons being photons unless it is from a quantum physicist. Given that a quantum is mostly theoretical and infinite and there is no evidence that one photon was ever the same as another, it is not responsible to say that one light is the same as another, IMO. A person is a person, right? Snowflake is a snowflake? Smart people think about, and post about, the differences.
Take a look at this graph from 350 nm to 850nm, believed by many to be the true useful spectrum for a wide range of corals. Look at the output below 400nm in the true UV range... this is not filtered by the bulb or glass and that spectrum will penetrate in the ocean down to about 10m, which is where nearly all corals in the hobby come from since they are collected on one breath with masks and stuff.
I know that some LED companies have published that UV is this or that, but they have been wrong. Many others also say that their fixtures have UV that are really violet. The truth is that UV is present in the wild and corals can use it. It is also true that not all seem to need it even if they can get additional benefits from having it.
I know that some LED companies have published that UV is this or that, but they have been wrong. Many others also say that their fixtures have UV that are really violet. The truth is that UV is present in the wild and corals can use it. It is also true that not all seem to need it even if they can get additional benefits from having it.
BradB
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I don't see how 'any acropora' is realistic. abrotanoides, microclados, donei all only do well in tanks with the highest light and flow, and there are many wild Acropora that need so much more they never make it into the hobby. To keep the more delicate, lower light Acropora in the same tank - you'd need a huge tank. You can do different light levels, but wildly different flow is levels is harder.
I don't see how MH can be cheaper on a larger tank. I used to run 2x400's on the tank I have now, which is about $200/bulb costs per year. 2 Gen 5 Pro Radions are $1680, if they last 8 years, that's $210/year. So $10 more /year to cut electric cost in half.
I am DIY, so I am probably spending about $100 in bulbs and other materials per year for a lot more light - although I spend a lot of time, and my costs were much higher getting started.
Ferrari vs Fiero is a great analogy. You can't quote Ferrari acceleration times to argue American cars aren't any good.
BradB
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In my experience, true UV diodes do not degrade faster than other LEDs (10 years useful life for LEDs running them conservatively) - of course any LED degrades faster the higher you run it. They are also very efficient, and not cheap. I do agree the broad spectrum of MH is probably better, but again, in my experience, anything under 400nm is not worth pursuing.
If you don't want to hear about light except from a quantum physicist, you are definitely on the wrong thread, and probably should avoid the whole forum. I am sure there are professional quantum physicists who keep reef tanks, but they are a small minority.
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I just wonder sometimes how long the 'more spectrum', 'more power', 'more coverage' philosophy can keep going within LED development before you have yourself a product with very similar power consumption and heat output of MH.
AI Sol - 24 LED - 75W
XR30 G1 - 32 LEDs - 118W
XR30 G2 - 32 LEDs - 130W
XR30 G2 PRO - 40 LEDs - 155W
XR30 G3 - 38 LEDs - 156W
XR30 G3 PRO - 42 LEDs - 156W
XR30 G4 - 46 LEDs - 34 LEDs - 150W
XR30G4 PRO - 46 LEDs - 190W
XR30G5 - 102 LEDs - 205W
XR30G5 PRO - 102 LEDs - 215W
Orphek Atlantik V4 - 78(dual) LEDs - 221W
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Phoenix 14K - 1 Bulb - 250W
AI Sol - 24 LED - 75W
XR30 G1 - 32 LEDs - 118W
XR30 G2 - 32 LEDs - 130W
XR30 G2 PRO - 40 LEDs - 155W
XR30 G3 - 38 LEDs - 156W
XR30 G3 PRO - 42 LEDs - 156W
XR30 G4 - 46 LEDs - 34 LEDs - 150W
XR30G4 PRO - 46 LEDs - 190W
XR30G5 - 102 LEDs - 205W
XR30G5 PRO - 102 LEDs - 215W
Orphek Atlantik V4 - 78(dual) LEDs - 221W
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Phoenix 14K - 1 Bulb - 250W
If you can replace a 400w halide with a single xr40 gen 5 radion, then we are on different levels of light needs. I have found what Dr. Joshi and many others found that even 3x xr30s is about what it takes to spread and output a single larger MH over a large tank. You probably should have been using 150w halides before if xr30 is sufficient and not 400w and then your math would be different - this is a choice issue, not a light type issue.
5 years on a fixture is about what you should plan on for real-world cost. You have many that are older than that? I change about 8x Phoenix bulbs a year at about $40 on sale. I would need at least 16 xr30 Radions to replace these... at least 16 and maybe more like 20 at $750 each or about $12-15k in panels that are out of warranty in a year and while some might make it longer than 5 years, others will not and that five years will be very real. When comparing actual output to actual output and actual wattage to actual wattage, the argument is not there.
Most of this math kinda stopped years ago when more people figured out that the LED companies and some people were cherry picking stats and numbers. LEDs do not last forever. If you really need high output, then you won't save any wattage and there are lower wattage options for other types of lights too. Bulb replacement yearly (or every other year for some) and panel replacement is real for both sides and non-realistic assuming of lifespan is not smart for anything.
If you can keep true UV diodes from degrading, you need to let CREE and the other diode companies know what you are doing... they all have issues with them.
I love talking light and have been to where most of these corals are collected and see what they have in nature as well as talking to the biologists in the area about food, plankton, light, etc. I hate it when people post that a photon is a photon since nobody knows what they are talking about when they say that unless they can define infinity in theory. I also hate it when people post that they all can work... no crap, but the details matter and those that post these things don't have any idea about the details.
5 years on a fixture is about what you should plan on for real-world cost. You have many that are older than that? I change about 8x Phoenix bulbs a year at about $40 on sale. I would need at least 16 xr30 Radions to replace these... at least 16 and maybe more like 20 at $750 each or about $12-15k in panels that are out of warranty in a year and while some might make it longer than 5 years, others will not and that five years will be very real. When comparing actual output to actual output and actual wattage to actual wattage, the argument is not there.
Most of this math kinda stopped years ago when more people figured out that the LED companies and some people were cherry picking stats and numbers. LEDs do not last forever. If you really need high output, then you won't save any wattage and there are lower wattage options for other types of lights too. Bulb replacement yearly (or every other year for some) and panel replacement is real for both sides and non-realistic assuming of lifespan is not smart for anything.
If you can keep true UV diodes from degrading, you need to let CREE and the other diode companies know what you are doing... they all have issues with them.
I love talking light and have been to where most of these corals are collected and see what they have in nature as well as talking to the biologists in the area about food, plankton, light, etc. I hate it when people post that a photon is a photon since nobody knows what they are talking about when they say that unless they can define infinity in theory. I also hate it when people post that they all can work... no crap, but the details matter and those that post these things don't have any idea about the details.
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Best thing I like about Halides is I get a new light every year for what I pay for a nice frag.
Just another way of looking at it.
BradB
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Sanjay's tank is an excellent example of a really great SPS tank under MH that converted to a really great SPS tank under LEDs. I think I remember him talking about heat, bulb and electric costs, but one thing I am certain of - he didn't switch back to MH.
When I say "a photon is a photon and frequency and number of photos is all that matters", I am not saying any other properties do not exist. I am saying in 25+ years in a hobby filled with light obssessed people and reading everything on light I can (debates were even more heated before LEDs existed), I have yet to see an intelligent discussion saying these properties make any difference to coral. If there was any practical effect, we'd all be well aware of it decades ago.
