LED Pros Help me emulate the iwasaki 65k!

Battlecorals · Oct 4, 2013

The iwasaki 65k is one of the best halides you can put over acros. I have a little challenge for the led masters, and that is to help me come as close to iwasaki as possible using leds.

I confess I am not even sure where to begin but that is why I am asking here. If I can get an led to do for me what my beloved sakis can or better even I would be ecstatic!

While I believe I am more than savvy enough to diy one given the right info, I just don't have the time to do it all. If anyone out there, (vendors included) wants to put a little elbow grease into this one I'd be more than willing to buy the final product and put it to the test myself. At this point I am open to any and all suggestions.

1.0reef · Oct 4, 2013

Maybe a different spectrum Evil Cluster???

Battlecorals · Oct 4, 2013

Sure something like that. doesn't have to be brighter than the sun even. I just want it to do what my sakis can do

Not interested in aesthetics of the actual light coming from the led just function.

ReefLEDLights · Oct 4, 2013

Battlecorals said:
The iwasaki 65k is one of the best halides you can put over acros. I have a little challenge for the led masters, and that is to help me come as close to iwasaki as possible using leds.

I confess I am not even sure where to begin but that is why I am asking here. If I can get an led to do for me what my beloved sakis can or better even I would be ecstatic!

While I believe I am more than savvy enough to diy one given the right info, I just don't have the time to do it all. If anyone out there, (vendors included) wants to put a little elbow grease into this one I'd be more than willing to buy the final product and put it to the test myself. At this point I am open to any and all suggestions.

No Problem

PM Sent

Bill

Battlecorals · Oct 5, 2013

Got it thanks!

CoryC · Oct 5, 2013

you're trying to make apples shine like oranges! the two sources are so different, i'd say just try to get close and test it out but you're still going to have a metric butt load of untestable variables.

Battlecorals · Oct 5, 2013

Oh I totally agree. I just know there are some real sharp led guys on the boards and wanted to put them to the test

ReefLEDLights · Oct 10, 2013

Awesome Setup. Nice to see old school lighting working well.

Used the same Iwasaki myself for years with great growth results...

Good to meet with you.

Bill

Battlecorals · Oct 12, 2013

Ok well Bill at reefLED lights has stepped up to the challenge and will be putting together a custom fixture to try to pull this one off. I have one if his standards on loan till it's done and I'll be documenting every step over In his forum.

Really excited about seeing where this is going to go. We are planning on trying out different combos till we hit the mark. It may take some time but I think well get there He's got a good layout so far and I'm sure he'll chime in in the thread with all the details.

And again for all you led experts on the boards. Please feel free to lend an opinion.

mike007 · Oct 12, 2013

Orphec leds are #1 in my opinion.

1.0reef · Oct 13, 2013

IMO the replica of a MH bulb using leds won't come with 12-20K white leds....

Battlecorals · Oct 13, 2013

He has a 66 led layout in mind with a mix of three or four different whites and some royal blue as well. That's about as much as I know so far.

jedimasterben · Oct 13, 2013

Essentially you're looking at warm white, high-CRI mixed with large amounts of long wavelength violet (in the 430nm range). No other LEDs are needed to emulate the spectral signature of the bulb in question.

ReefLEDLights · Oct 13, 2013

jedimasterben said:
Essentially you're looking at warm white, high-CRI mixed with large amounts of long wavelength violet (in the 430nm range). No other LEDs are needed to emulate the spectral signature of the bulb in question.

Totally Agree

But the efficiency of the 410-430nm LEDs has much to be desired.

As a first try I'm considering Cree XT-E Royal Blue 450nm instead as they are much brighter than any 410-430nm LED per watt and capitalize on the "Able To Use" spectrum...Efficiency is a major consideration.

Any feed back or PM is welcome.

Good to see you posting again.

Bill

1.0reef · Oct 13, 2013

Giga's ARC Evil Cluster looks like the sun to me IMO

jedimasterben · Oct 13, 2013

ReefLEDLights said:
Totally Agree

But the efficiency of the 410-430nm LEDs has much to be desired.

As a first try I'm considering Cree XT-E Royal Blue 450nm instead as they are much brighter than any 410-430nm LED per watt and capitalize on the "Able To Use" spectrum...Efficiency is a major consideration.

Any feed back or PM is welcome.

Good to see you posting again.

Bill

I don't know 100% of the origin, but the 430nm HV from LEDGroupBuy hits 960mW peak at 700mA 25Â°C. Bin Q of the XT-E royal blue peak at around 1,200mW at 700mA adjusted to 25Â°C. That's ~80% of the efficiency. The previous generation was only 600mW or so at 700mA, so I'd imagine that the next generation will close that gap.

I've tested them side-by-side with Rebel ES royal blue (a couple of percent below the XT-E at 700mA) and can verify that there was only a small gap in PAR.

Personally, I still don't understand the point of brute-forcing PAR in green and red, when less blue light will grow corals at the same rate (although it is FAR easier to photosaturate with blue light than green or red).

ReefLEDLights · Oct 14, 2013

jedimasterben said:
I don't know 100% of the origin, but the 430nm HV from LEDGroupBuy hits 960mW peak at 700mA 25Â°C. Bin Q of the XT-E royal blue peak at around 1,200mW at 700mA adjusted to 25Â°C. That's ~80% of the efficiency. The previous generation was only 600mW or so at 700mA, so I'd imagine that the next generation will close that gap.

I've tested them side-by-side with Rebel ES royal blue (a couple of percent below the XT-E at 700mA) and can verify that there was only a small gap in PAR.

Personally, I still don't understand the point of brute-forcing PAR in green and red, when less blue light will grow corals at the same rate (although it is FAR easier to photosaturate with blue light than green or red).

Brute-Forcing PAR on red and green is what we will experiment with along with Brute-Force 450nm.

Not necessarily true on "photosaturate" As depths in SPS vary greatly the ones in the shallow tidal reef are exposed to huge amounts of 500-680nm.

Growth has been proven without the 500-680nm. Just stepping out of the box a bit to see if Extra PAR well above 500 helps looks and in this case what spectrum.

Back in the day my Euphyllia grew like weeds under the 400 watt Iwasaki....I also fed the fish on that side of the tank as well.

Bill

jedimasterben · Oct 14, 2013

ReefLEDLights said:
Brute-Forcing PAR on red and green is what we will experiment with along with Brute-Force 450nm.

Not necessarily true on "photosaturate" As depths in SPS vary greatly the ones in the shallow tidal reef are exposed to huge amounts of 500-680nm.

Growth has been proven without the 500-680nm. Just stepping out of the box a bit to see if Extra PAR well above 500 helps looks and in this case what spectrum.

Back in the day my Euphyllia grew like weeds under the 400 watt Iwasaki....I also fed the fish on that side of the tank as well.

Bill

The saturation point for almost all coral is less than 300mmol of PAR, and only certain SPS are above that. Dana Riddle measured a pink pocillopora, which is one of the SPS that requires incredibly intense light to maintain its color, reaches photo inhibition at 350 PAR. More surprisingly, he measured a 'Superman' Montipora Reaching inhibition point at 450 PAR.

It is not specified as the type of light used in those tests as far as I know, so he could be using primarily blue or otherwise.

I know that under blue light, it is very easy to saturate and inhibit coral growth, as blue photons have far higher energy than red or green photons. It is also much easier to produce red and green photons, as they have much lower ev values, so you can get MUCH more PAR out of green and red than blue when given a set amount of optical power.

I've also heard many people say that a photon is a photon, doesn't matter what wavelength or the difference in energy, but it is commonly known that these lower-kelvin bulbs at least appear to produce higher growth (all tests I've seen, though, show the opposite is true, though, with blue light of the same PAR leading to higher skeletal mass). One theory I've seen is that it only looks like higher growth because the coral grow more outward instead of upward, indicating some sort of biochemical response to more red light and telling the coral "hey, you're growing too high, cowboy!"

All of this just goes to show that as much as we know about corals, photosynthesis, and how they use it, that we really know little to nothing.

GHill762 · Oct 14, 2013

interesting thread..

following.

ReefLEDLights · Oct 14, 2013

Here is an interesting but dated article by Dana Riddle http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/3/aafeature1

The Iwasaki 400 watt MH in produces PAR levels well above the inhibition point.

The light in a shallow reef like Hanauma Bay well exceeds the levels the MH produce.

What will be interesting to witness is whether or not this extra light causes SPS to produce pigments to reflect this extra light and if so is there a specific spectrum that is more optimal in the production of these pigments.

Bill