LED to Metal Halides?

[Thomthom329]

Hi everyone,

Long time viewer but first time poster. Love this forum!

So, to the reason for my post. I'm hoping for some recommendations on converting my existing lighting setup from LEDs to Metal Halides (or reasons for keeping LEDs OTHER than cost advantages).

I currently have a standard 90G RR tank which has been setup as a reef for a little over a year now (was a FOWLR for about a year before converting). I currently have (2) Hydra 52s on the tank and keep mostly SPS corals (all frags but some have shown some impressive growth in the last month - more on that below. I would also like to get a couple of clams in the near future, and maybe an anemone for my paired clowns.

Up until the last month or two, my growth has been almost non-existent, while losing a number of SPS frags along the way (and a clam), and my colors have been pale at best. I've learned that my primary reason for slow/no growth/pale colors were due to the fact that my water parameters were too clean (always kept 0 nitrates with little/no coral feeding), and perhaps not stable enough for SPS as I used Kalk in my ATO for calcium and ALK supplementation. For the better part of a year, I have been carbon dosing with vinegar while keeping my ALK low (7-8 dKH) to avoid burnt tips. I've since switched to Red Sea's Reef Foundation program A, B & C, NOPOX and Reef Energy A+B and have seen more growth in the last month than I ever did int the year since it was converted to reef. Nitrates are still zero, but I'm trying to get them up a tick as recommended by Red Sea while trying to combat an algae issue that has sprung up since the move to RS products, but I digress.

Anyway, while I'm finally seeing the growth and color improvements I was been hoping for, I wonder if my tank would be better served if I also converted my lighting from LEDs to MH. Don't get me wrong, I like the Hydra 52s (a lot) but if MH will provide even better results, I'd like to make the switch. I've never had MH lighting before so my head is swimming with the all the information and options out there.

So, I'm hoping this great community can provide some helpful advice. First, do you agree that a switch to MH from my current Hydra setup would be helpful/better? I currently have (2) 52s over my 90G which 'appears' to provide good lighting. Secondly, what kind of MH setup should I get for optimal SPS/clam conditions? I'm not too concerned about the cost, as I have several pieces of equipment that I plan to sell soon that will offset the costs (RB Photon 48, Gyre 150, eventually the Hydra 52s, etc). Recommendations on which manufacturer, wattage, number of fixtures, whether a T5/MH or LED/MH setup is best, etc. would be greatly appreciated!

Many thanks, all!

Best,
Pete

 

[ronnie]

If you're just starting to see growth, then wait. Give it at least a few more months (a year is preferable).

MH will work no problems, but it sounds like you have the hydras where they should be. Don't change it if it ain't broke.

 

[Acrononomus]

Always a fan of halides and heavy feeding, that's just me though, if u make the switch how do u plan to mount them? Do u have a canopy ? Is heat going to be an issue? Do u have a chiller? Halides have always been the go to source if you wanna keep sps and clams. Glad to see you found the issue with your water being too clean ....

 

[Thomthom329]

Acro, good questions. I plan to suspend them from the ceiling (first thought is to have 2 pendants), no canopy. I have a chiller so heat is not an issue either.

Ronnie, you're probably right, and I don't plan to make any sudden changes, but wanted to start gathering info/advice sooner rather than later. Don't get me wrong, love the controllability of my Hydra's with my Apex, but willing to sacrifice control for optimal lighting, if needed.

 

[ronnie]

I'm unable to grow SPS with LEDs. I've tried. Many brands, DIY, and still couldn't succeed. I'm a T5 person through and through. So that'd be my suggestion (ATI dimmable sunpowers). But again, if you're seeing growth and the coloration is there, you have figured it out and I'd stick with it.

How's the shadowing on the corals? That was one thing with LEDs I always disliked. The undersides always seemed oddly colored due to the shadow effects.

 

[Thomthom329]

Hmm, now that you mention it, I have noticed that one of my milles is pale on the underside (mounted somewhat horizontally on my rock) but assumed the water param changes we're taking a bit of a toll. Perhaps it is a shadowing problem, but can't be certain. Hard to tell on other frags as they're all mounted vertically (or on a rack) and still a little too small to cause any shadowing problems. I'll have to keep a eye on that. Thanks for the tip!

As for growth and color, I should clarify that it is much improved but I can't say it's optimal. I really have no basis to compare and probably a little too early to make any definitive judgements. Monti's still look a little pale, but I have a pink birdsnest that is finally pink again(!) and starting to show growth for the first time in a year. So that's encouraging.

 

[jeremy]

I am also a t5 guy ATI sunpower. Love it. I have tried led and wasn't happy with the results. I also have a halide-t5 over my frag tank and really like it. Like everyone is saying if your just now getting growth why switch now? But if you do look into Hamilton cebu sun fixtures with radium and m80 ballasts or reef Brite halide pendant with led.

 

[143MPCo]

Maybe we can get @d2mini to chime in on this one, he did a very similar conversion if memory serves me right... Dennis you out and about?

 

[MontiFanatic402]

T5 all the way baby!!! MH is great too, awesome growth, colour, and shimmer!! It seems like most people with LED have to find that sweet spot, and leave it alone.....I say if your getting colors back, and growth, give it 6 months and see how your corals look.

 

[Thomthom329]

In all honesty, I'll probably wait it out for a while before deciding but trying to gather some info sooner than later. Growth is pretty good so far.

Terrible pics, but this first one was taken mid April, a couple of weeks before converting to RS products. The second pic is today. I'd say it's almost doubled in size.

 

[Reefing Madness]

There are alot of SPS people out there that have switched back to halides for growth reasons. Over a 90g, using the 250w 14k Halides should show you the best growth. In fact, you shouldn't have to wait a year to see good growth out of anything, you should start to see the white tips very quickly, if they are going to grow. If you have a canopy, I'd go with the single ended Halides, if you need a unit to sit over the tank, then go with the HQI double ended lamps, but I'd stick with the 14k, Radiums. If you really don't care about the cost, then ideally you'd be looking for a 400w HQI 20k Radium lamp, with double ends. That would give you the best light possible for growth imo.

 

[Thomthom329]

There are alot of SPS people out there that have switched back to halides for growth reasons. Over a 90g, using the 250w 14k Halides should show you the best growth. In fact, you shouldn't have to wait a year to see good growth out of anything, you should start to see the white tips very quickly, if they are going to grow. If you have a canopy, I'd go with the single ended Halides, if you need a unit to sit over the tank, then go with the HQI double ended lamps, but I'd stick with the 14k, Radiums. If you really don't care about the cost, then ideally you'd be looking for a 400w HQI 20k Radium lamp, with double ends. That would give you the best light possible for growth imo.

Many thanks for the advice. Would you recommend any other brands other than Hamilton or Reef Brite, as noted above? Also, are the hybrid T5/LED fixtures the way to go, or just a simple halide lamp?

 

[Thomthom329]

Also, would I be looking for a single fixture or two for proper coverage on my 90? I read somewhere that 2 pendants might be best as a single fixture may cause the center brace to melt.

 

[Reefing Madness]

I'd stick with the names listed, there may be others out there that may chime in for units, but those are the ones that I know get good ratings. As far as the LED T5 unit, IMO, I'd not go that route, as your strictly SPS, I'd go with nothing but Halides.
definetely go with 2 units for coverage. As far as the center brace, the heat may do it in over time, then you can always add a glass brace, but you don't have to worry about that for awhile.

 

[luke33]

I have ran LEDs exclusively for the last 5yrs. The previous 8 I ran t5's or mh's. I have had success with all but most inconsistency with led's, and is why I am going back to an ati sunpower. For sps t5 and mh's are just better than led imo.

 

[d2mini]

Maybe we can get @d2mini to chime in on this one, he did a very similar conversion if memory serves me right... Dennis you out and about?

Ya, i just get tired of typing it over and over again. LOL!

After two years of LED, I picked up a Hamilton Cebu Sun with M80 ballasts and Radium bulbs, and everything in my tank exploded in growth and color.
Its not that there is something inherently wrong with LED, it's just that most people having problems (including myself) don't have near enough of them.
I had 4 Radion Pros over my 7x2x2 tank which are very nice lights, but I really needed 6 minimum. Any cost savings from bulbs or electricity is obliterated by the fixture cost.
In comparison, I got the cebu for $1k all in.
If you want to have success with LED, cover the tank with them.
Look at the Triton tank running the Lani LED panels. That's what I'm talking about.

Not only has color, growth rate, growth patterns, and PE all improved, but there are other things I just prefer over LED.
The tank is much brighter overall. Much.
I don't stress over spectrum and know that if anything is having a problem the lighting is not the cause.
I don't need to deal with all these multiple fixtures, calibrating them, dealing with online programming, etc. Life is much simpler now.

Downside is the heat. I have a canopy which traps heat. So a chiller is a must. That is where the extra energy usage comes into play, not with the lights themselves.
If you have an open top tank, you can typically get away without a chiller.
My old cube had one DE 250w MH and four T5 and it still needed a heater to keep temps stable. As long as the AC in the house was running.


www.everydayreef.com

 

[bneufelder]

I switched three months ago from hydra 52s to cebu sun w/radiums. I had some sps that was down to one polyp left alive and everything has reversed. I've had so much growth, I have to keep bumping up my 2part dosing.

The leds definitely work, but I find the halide/t5 combo MUCH easier to operate them an the 52 and the corals are happy throughout the tank. With my 52s, I always felt like they were laser beams. If a coral was in the right position it would look good, move it an inch and it would be dead in a day.

I also had color problems with anything I out in my tank. It would brown out or RTN/STN. With halides I've had a lot better results. I still seem to have problems buying acros from led systems. Some fair well, some freak out. The lights are very different IMO.

 

[Thomthom329]

Ok, just so I'm clear, the Hamilton Cebu is a halide-t5 fixture, correct? Seems the overwhelming recommendation is to go with 400w. Is this the right light: http://www.marinedepot.com/Hamilton...ixtures-Hamilton-HT21751-FILTFIMHTFSE-vi.html

Also, I presume a 48" is better rather than two 24s? Perhaps a silly question but I'm stuck on this whole melting of the center brace idea. The sheer fact that each unit has 5 plugs seems to suggest a single unit is optimal. Is this all one would need? Anything else I need to purchase or consider upgrading?

Lastly, on average, how often should one replace the bulbs? Is the 6-8 month recommendation accurate or do you find they need to be replaced more/less often?

Many thanks to all those that have chimed in here. Your sound advice is greatly appreciated for a newish reefer not willing to give up on this fantastic hobby!

 

[143MPCo]

Ya, i just get tired of typing it over and over again.

Fully understand but, thank you for sharing your experience with this topic.

 

[d2mini]

Ok, just so I'm clear, the Hamilton Cebu is a halide-t5 fixture, correct? Seems the overwhelming recommendation is to go with 400w. Is this the right light: http://www.marinedepot.com/Hamilton_Cebu_Sun_Metal_Halide_+_T5_HO_Lighting_System_24_to_25_Inch_Single_Ended_Metal_Halide_Fixtures-Hamilton-HT21751-FILTFIMHTFSE-vi.html

Correct. As far as wattage, it depends on the depth of your tank and how high you want to mount the fixture. My tank is 24" deep and the 250w MH is plenty.
Some people prefer the Radiums in 400w. I think there is a slight difference in color.
You can also order direct from Hamilton, including Radium bulbs.
If you order from Marine Depot, i believe you only have the choice of getting the Hamilton MH brand bulbs with it. Maybe a quick call can get them swapped out with something else if you wish.

What I haven't done yet but want to do eventually, is get a blue reebrite strip for it. It will bolt right up to this fixture.

Fully understand but, thank you for sharing your experience with this topic.

haha, no problem.