Lesson Learned...Triggered a mini-cycle with just upgrading tank size

[brandon429]

That's assuming there is was a free ammonia problem. Corals aren't significant bioload, we've tracked a dead tang left to rot and ammonia didn't move above thousandths ppm on seneye. Though it seems trivial to claim there's no free ammonia issue here, that's key in forming a plan of rescue.

Thankfully we'll know soon. Any reef that can't control ammonia dies of compounding within 48 hours, the whole reef. And if it lives, the ammonia wasn't ever out of control. There's no middle ground. Until digital testing overtakes colorimetric tube tests the hobby will continue to accept all readings unquestionably / accepted


Fun research: I'll PayPal thirty dollars right now to first person who can search out a seneye cycling chart that shows attaining .2 ppm at any phase of the reef, for longer than 24 hours, new or old reef doesn't matter. Ok go bounty post the thread no photoshopping. Nothing wierd like broke monitors...a working .2 actual system...dare anyone to locate. Accept mindstream or seneye OR digital lab probe free ammonia data


The point is to see how drastic the difference is between the two data sources


How many online posts can we find claiming .2, not using seneye? A million. Fifteen right now, just on this board

 

[User1]

Only addition was 20 lbs of dry sand and 30G of water during this upgrade. Absolutely nothing else changed. My 50G had been established and thriving for 2 years.

So sand, water, nothing else? Just move from A to B? No new rock?

Personally I think you went through, or are going through, a mini cycle. Change. It can be as simple as taking an existing rock that has been in your tank for 2 years, taking it out, using hammer and chisel, splitting it, and putting it back in the tank. What was a complete rock with biological filter on the surface is now two with a clean surface. That is going to take time to get a biological filter and and since it is new will trigger a mini cycle.

Sand is no different. Water is a moot point because you noted parameters are the same.

So what you have is new sand, upheaval of foundation, new placement, so a mini cycle. I upgraded from a 40 breeder established over 6 years which previously was in two bio cubes for another 5, and before that a mix of stuff from a 100 gallon. Rock foundation was old and mature. I upgraded to a 210 gallon and lost a few corals and fish because of the mini cycle. And the upgraded tank was cycled and running for 3 months before I merged livestock.

Only thing in my case that changed was movement and the length of time the dry rock was maturing. 3 months. I lost a bunch of hammers, 3 rose bubble tip anemones, Xenia, blue clove polyps, finger leather, and a toad stool. Fish was a lawnmower blenny, 2 talbot damsels, 1 asure damsel, and a kole tang. Not over night like you but over the course of a month.

My belief is that the rock wasn't mature and while the tank was cycled and can, and did, process 4 ppm of ammonia in under 24 hours the 150 lbs of dry pukani didn't have enough biological foundation set to support what I moved over. And during the various stages of algae and other things post cycle we see during the first year it masked things like parameters or overall health giving me a false sense of security.

The amount of loss you are talking about in my opinion is because of the change, addition of sand, and the biological filter taking hold yet. And counter to that false representation of parameters as a side effect. Sand is no more than a rock ground down over time by mother nature (or in our case man made).

I don't know really - I'm probably way out in left field and wrong. But having been through an upgrade and loosing stuff even though tank was cycled and clear for a couple months my only conclusion is that transfer = disruption = mini cycle.

Sorry about the loss but you should be able to recover some things. I was able to.

 

[hometown9]

Was the dry sand brand new or re-used? How did you clean it? Rinse with tap or RODI until the water ran clear?

It was 'new' in that I bought in a bag so can only trust so much. Rinsed with RODI until clear, dried in sun for a day. Here's the sand I used: https://coralsfishandbeyond.com/pro..._content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic

 

[hometown9]

That's assuming there is was a free ammonia problem. Corals aren't significant bioload, we've tracked a dead tang left to rot and ammonia didn't move above thousandths ppm on seneye. Though it seems trivial to claim there's no free ammonia issue here, that's key in forming a plan of rescue.

Thankfully we'll know soon. Any reef that can't control ammonia dies of compounding within 48 hours, the whole reef. And if it lives, the ammonia wasn't ever out of control. There's no middle ground. Until digital testing overtakes colorimetric tube tests the hobby will continue to accept all readings unquestionably / accepted


Fun research: I'll PayPal thirty dollars right now to first person who can search out a seneye cycling chart that shows attaining .2 ppm at any phase of the reef, for longer than 24 hours, new or old reef doesn't matter. Ok go bounty post the thread no photoshopping. Nothing wierd like broke monitors...a working .2 actual system...dare anyone to locate. Accept mindstream or seneye OR digital lab probe free ammonia data


The point is to see how drastic the difference is between the two data sources


How many online posts can we find claiming .2, not using seneye? A million. Fifteen right now, just on this board

 

[hometown9]

That's assuming there is was a free ammonia problem. Corals aren't significant bioload, we've tracked a dead tang left to rot and ammonia didn't move above thousandths ppm on seneye. Though it seems trivial to claim there's no free ammonia issue here, that's key in forming a plan of rescue.

Thankfully we'll know soon. Any reef that can't control ammonia dies of compounding within 48 hours, the whole reef. And if it lives, the ammonia wasn't ever out of control. There's no middle ground. Until digital testing overtakes colorimetric tube tests the hobby will continue to accept all readings unquestionably / accepted


Fun research: I'll PayPal thirty dollars right now to first person who can search out a seneye cycling chart that shows attaining .2 ppm at any phase of the reef, for longer than 24 hours, new or old reef doesn't matter. Ok go bounty post the thread no photoshopping. Nothing wierd like broke monitors...a working .2 actual system...dare anyone to locate. Accept mindstream or seneye OR digital lab probe free ammonia data


The point is to see how drastic the difference is between the two data sources


How many online posts can we find claiming .2, not using seneye? A million. Fifteen right now, just on this board

I know these tests aren't accurate but I have run them in the past and 0 is usually 0 for nitrite and ammonia. In this case they're not. Something seems to be cycling. The only addition was +30G water (from the same source) and the dry sand. All other rock, skimmers, light, livestock, scrubber, reactor are exactly the same. Didn't even change the media. Inverts and fish are fine. Corals are just dying by the day.

 

[hometown9]

sorry to hear that. Besides the new sand, did the new tank's water parameters match exactly to the old tank, i.e. Alk, Calc, Mag, PO4, NO3, Salinity & temp? Also is the light new?

Everything matches exactly - CA, ALK, lighting. However nitrite

Hard to see why a simple upgrade would trigger a cycle ….. unless you used a lot of nutrient laden old sand. I've done a bunch of in-place upgrades without a new cycle. SPS don't handle being moved well. My guess would be that some died due to stress, triggered some ammonia which stressed other coral which released more ammonia ….. well, you get the idea.

If it was just my SPS that's one thing, but now the montis are are on their way out. My 2-yr old acro milli just poofed to nothing in <24 hrs.

 

[hometown9]

I'm rea

So sand, water, nothing else? Just move from A to B? No new rock?

Personally I think you went through, or are going through, a mini cycle. Change. It can be as simple as taking an existing rock that has been in your tank for 2 years, taking it out, using hammer and chisel, splitting it, and putting it back in the tank. What was a complete rock with biological filter on the surface is now two with a clean surface. That is going to take time to get a biological filter and and since it is new will trigger a mini cycle.

Sand is no different. Water is a moot point because you noted parameters are the same.

So what you have is new sand, upheaval of foundation, new placement, so a mini cycle. I upgraded from a 40 breeder established over 6 years which previously was in two bio cubes for another 5, and before that a mix of stuff from a 100 gallon. Rock foundation was old and mature. I upgraded to a 210 gallon and lost a few corals and fish because of the mini cycle. And the upgraded tank was cycled and running for 3 months before I merged livestock.

Only thing in my case that changed was movement and the length of time the dry rock was maturing. 3 months. I lost a bunch of hammers, 3 rose bubble tip anemones, Xenia, blue clove polyps, finger leather, and a toad stool. Fish was a lawnmower blenny, 2 talbot damsels, 1 asure damsel, and a kole tang. Not over night like you but over the course of a month.

My belief is that the rock wasn't mature and while the tank was cycled and can, and did, process 4 ppm of ammonia in under 24 hours the 150 lbs of dry pukani didn't have enough biological foundation set to support what I moved over. And during the various stages of algae and other things post cycle we see during the first year it masked things like parameters or overall health giving me a false sense of security.

The amount of loss you are talking about in my opinion is because of the change, addition of sand, and the biological filter taking hold yet. And counter to that false representation of parameters as a side effect. Sand is no more than a rock ground down over time by mother nature (or in our case man made).

I don't know really - I'm probably way out in left field and wrong. But having been through an upgrade and loosing stuff even though tank was cycled and clear for a couple months my only conclusion is that transfer = disruption = mini cycle.

Sorry about the loss but you should be able to recover some things. I was able to.

I'm really trying not to toss anything but it's getting worse by the day. First the SPS, then the montis. LPS seem to be ok. as do fish, and inverts. I cut light to 40% of what I was doing but nitrite and ammonia not zero, and NO3 @ 30 (from 2). PO4 in check at .2 thanks to GFO. Scrubber is putting our a weird colored algae that it wasn't before....very dark and easy to remove.

 

[ApoIsland]

Shoot. I'm sorry things are not improving. Im definitely no expert but to me it seems there is a problem in the water. Not sure if it was some contaminant that got in there or what. But If you have a problem with your water that is killing all your coral I would change almost ALL your water. Just make sure new water is well oxygenated before the change.

If parameters are fairly close there is no risk to coral. I do very large water changes every time I move tanks (80%-90%) and have never lost a coral.

Or since lps is fine and if only a few struggling sps are left maybe just pull those and setup small container with new water and see if they start to recover at all.

I would change something though or it sounds like you will be left with zero sps soon.

 

[brandon429]

@Cell

Notice how fish live day by day, other corals, inverts

Only one group of corals, the most sensitive ones, are stressing

That much live rock surface area doesn't permit free ammonia and his fish confirm it

What do animals do when unable to regulate systemic free ammonia

muerte

Yet daily this tank lives, doesn't smell (free ammonia smells, always, potent) and free ammonia doesn't just target sps leaving others well. We've talked about cross reads, how these tests indicate conversion levels in general and not accurately (a container of new water hasn't been dosed with random additives, it's not converting, so would read zero)

In the end, heels will dig in around non seneye testing and that's how it will remain until digital takes over.

Ammonia grossly affects all life forms in a system, it doesn't target whatsoever.

In sps bleaching threads, they bleach and all other life lives


We can specifically find that tint of ammonia level above, in the presence of perfectly fine fish, in thousands of api threads.

One faction here is going to follow free ammonia hunting

And another will follow irritant pathways such as light burning (of the most sensitive corals) and sand inclusions that sensitive corals didn't like

But the fish will live, act normally and feed each day. Aquaculture studies (who don't use api they use lab gear and document the work) show that fish can't live in free ammonia, but forum posts will only factor the tester, in my opinion that's how the two industries differ so greatly on what ammonia does and by extension, what filter bacteria do.

We know a cycled tank is converting his fish waste daily or they'd be dead

How would a bare level of free ammonia overcome that ability which manifests each day here, so the system isn't able to process 5ppm ammonia a day it can only process 4.8 ppm a day, and not one digital tester around can be bountied for thirty bucks to show a single instance of it happening

I still hate these sps are bleaching wish I could save it. I remember when it happened to me it ruined half a year of my otherwise positive attitude, I even emailed kessil accusing their lights of burning my system by losing blue spec/ ouch bad call lol. It was pain, I couldn't even muster a full tank shot only that partial

My bowl got lucky in that I started light dropping the first week I noticed lightening. They'd have never made weeks of full intensity lighting with recoverable flesh, only light dropping saved my coral

Soon afterwards I bought a thermometer

 

[hometown9]

rs well. We've talked about

@Cell

Notice how fish live day by day, other corals, inverts

Only one group of corals, the most sensitive ones, are stressing

That much live rock surface area doesn't permit free ammonia and his fish confirm it

What do animals do when unable to regulate systemic free ammonia

muerte

Yet daily this tank lives, doesn't smell (free ammonia smells, always, potent) and free ammonia doesn't just target sps leaving others well. We've talked about cross reads, how these tests indicate conversion levels in general and not accurately (a container of new water hasn't been dosed with random additives, it's not converting, so would read zero)

In the end, heels will dig in around non seneye testing and that's how it will remain until digital takes over.

Ammonia grossly affects all life forms in a system, it doesn't target whatsoever.

In sps bleaching threads, they bleach and all other life lives


We can specifically find that tint of ammonia level above, in the presence of perfectly fine fish, in thousands of api threads.

One faction here is going to follow free ammonia hunting

And another will follow irritant pathways such as light burning (of the most sensitive corals) and sand inclusions that sensitive corals didn't like

But the fish will live, act normally and feed each day. Aquaculture studies (who don't use api they use lab gear and document the work) show that fish can't live in free ammonia, but forum posts will only factor the tester, in my opinion that's how the two industries differ so greatly on what ammonia does and by extension, what filter bacteria do.

We know a cycled tank is converting his fish waste daily or they'd be dead

How would a bare level of free ammonia overcome that ability which manifests each day here, so the system isn't able to process 5ppm ammonia a day it can only process 4.8 ppm a day, and not one digital tester around can be bountied for thirty bucks to show a single instance of it happening

I still hate these sps are bleaching wish I could save it. I remember when it happened to me it ruined half a year of my otherwise positive attitude, I even emailed kessil accusing their lights of burning my system by losing blue spec/ ouch bad call lol. It was pain, I couldn't even muster a full tank shot only that partial

My bowl got lucky in that I started light dropping the first week I noticed lightening. They'd have never made weeks of full intensity lighting with recoverable flesh, only light dropping saved my coral

Soon afterwards I bought a thermometer

I dropped the lights 40% per recommendation and will be increasing them again tomorrow. It seemed to have helped the water clarity at least. Nitrite is down but not close to 0. no3 @ 25; PO4 at .15. I actually saw a glimmer of hope on the few remaining SPS with some colorful tips. I put some bio-blocks in the sump and macro to hopefully suck up the nutrients. scrubber is also starting to produce algae again, albeit a very different kind than my previous tank.

Would you recommend dosing NOPOX to get my NO3 down? Feel like that's causing lots of the browning of the coral.

 

[hometown9]

Shoot. I'm sorry things are not improving. Im definitely no expert but to me it seems there is a problem in the water. Not sure if it was some contaminant that got in there or what. But If you have a problem with your water that is killing all your coral I would change almost ALL your water. Just make sure new water is well oxygenated before the change.

If parameters are fairly close there is no risk to coral. I do very large water changes every time I move tanks (80%-90%) and have never lost a coral.

Or since lps is fine and if only a few struggling sps are left maybe just pull those and setup small container with new water and see if they start to recover at all.

I would change something though or it sounds like you will be left with zero sps soon.

Thanks. So even though all but one sps have lost all tissue, most still have that smell indicating they're alive. I'm going to keep them around and see what can be done. I actually had a very sensitive milli sps that for some reason so far is hanging around. Don't know why. I'm sure it'll be a goner in no time.

 

[JJ Ligs]

I had the same thing happen. Sorry about you coral

 

[LRT]

@brandon429
Much respects. I have been following yours posts and have learned alot from them and thank you for taking the time to do this for us all!
I did recently implement your sand rinse method and experienced 0 cloudiness. Both with RODI and Tap water.

I have to ask. If not mini cycle what is scientific term that is used when one experiences elevated nitrites and ammonia after disrupting an established system showing no Nitrites or Ammonia?

I have personally experienced and recorded this twice.

Once after I literally doubled my system water capacity. Just added 2 tables and extra sump to existing system.

And more recent after I overdosed my Nitrates and ended up changing out 100% of my system water capacity over a few weeks time.

I ask one because i plan on doubling my system up again and is there a way to prevent that this time?

As well as in case I ever overdose again in an emergency situation I want to be prepared next time.

 

[MightyMO]

@Cell

Notice how fish live day by day, other corals, inverts

Only one group of corals, the most sensitive ones, are stressing

That much live rock surface area doesn't permit free ammonia and his fish confirm it

What do animals do when unable to regulate systemic free ammonia

muerte

Yet daily this tank lives, doesn't smell (free ammonia smells, always, potent) and free ammonia doesn't just target sps leaving others well. We've talked about cross reads, how these tests indicate conversion levels in general and not accurately (a container of new water hasn't been dosed with random additives, it's not converting, so would read zero)

In the end, heels will dig in around non seneye testing and that's how it will remain until digital takes over.

Ammonia grossly affects all life forms in a system, it doesn't target whatsoever.

In sps bleaching threads, they bleach and all other life lives


We can specifically find that tint of ammonia level above, in the presence of perfectly fine fish, in thousands of api threads.

One faction here is going to follow free ammonia hunting

And another will follow irritant pathways such as light burning (of the most sensitive corals) and sand inclusions that sensitive corals didn't like

But the fish will live, act normally and feed each day. Aquaculture studies (who don't use api they use lab gear and document the work) show that fish can't live in free ammonia, but forum posts will only factor the tester, in my opinion that's how the two industries differ so greatly on what ammonia does and by extension, what filter bacteria do.

We know a cycled tank is converting his fish waste daily or they'd be dead

How would a bare level of free ammonia overcome that ability which manifests each day here, so the system isn't able to process 5ppm ammonia a day it can only process 4.8 ppm a day, and not one digital tester around can be bountied for thirty bucks to show a single instance of it happening

I still hate these sps are bleaching wish I could save it. I remember when it happened to me it ruined half a year of my otherwise positive attitude, I even emailed kessil accusing their lights of burning my system by losing blue spec/ ouch bad call lol. It was pain, I couldn't even muster a full tank shot only that partial

My bowl got lucky in that I started light dropping the first week I noticed lightening. They'd have never made weeks of full intensity lighting with recoverable flesh, only light dropping saved my coral

Soon afterwards I bought a thermometer

@brandon429 I just changed lighting to a kessil 360x and am noticing I'm losing polyps on my Birds nest, what is the recommended acclimation time and percentage for this light??? I thought my new power head mp40 was causing the issue, but bn likes high flow and it isn't direct... so it could be my new light bbqing it???

 

[brandon429]

On my change from power compacts to kessil I just did the bare level setting, all blue no white, with slow ramp up to 80% power over a weeks time

Blue vs white

Even now acclimated if I ran my lights with white my lps will lighten out, my system requires all blue setting to not bleach even still

 

[brandon429]

LRT I agree your testers reported the change, they appear to report it here as well. I don't have an answer as to why non seneye tests report free ammonia, holding day to day in the tenths ppm but no digital tester ever validated it so I still think the non seneye testers are wrong

Until we can get a digitally tracked ammonia reading to show what api shows, I'll view api as wrong and the digital testers as right

Maybe this is the action I'm not sure: tank is matured and detritus stores are stratified and locked in place not disturbed, harmony. Then a bed swap happens, disharmony. A digital tester might show an increase due to upwelling of waste from a constant .004 ppm free ammonia (a safe zone for all reefs) up to .008 (still safe) but api detects the change and reports it as .25/ my guess

The one thing that still matters is that digital ammonia testing never ever ever ever lines up with color tube ammonia testing from any brand. Digital ammonia testing matches what we're seeing regarding biology of the tank... fish live, sensitive inverts live.

Color tube tests always indicate a crash when the biology we can see doesn't match

When we look up free ammonia readings in reef tanks, we see this data trend:

- digital ammonia readings in calibrated, working meters never shows holding levels above safe zones when fish act ok

-api, red sea, nyos and salifert nearly always show holding ammonia non safe zone, fish act normally

- we have reports of lab gear ammonia probe data saying it showed a stuck cycle, what's missing is the thread, a pic of the test, or any patterning we can search for the claim

My skepticism exists solely because those three data points never agree. I don't know why color compare kits show days of holding above safe zone, while no digital testers calibrated and working ever show that. They're all ranging in the thousandths ppm