Let's talk about the $$$ nitty gritty on this Triton method

[ZoWhat]

I have a 180g DT and a 100g sump.....total water volume minus the LR is about 220-240g total water volume

Corals = 90% zoas/palys .....10% lps/softies .....0% sps

If I entertained the Triton dosing method (or other companies) I want to know:

* everything involving $$$ costs

* startup equip costs?
* how many test samples sent out a year & now much?
* how much $$$ dosing product?
* if it's a 4bottle kit can you buy individual bottles or have to buy all 4bottles as a bundled kit each time?

* any other costs?

* roughly how much TOTAL $$$ per year?




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[chipmunkofdoom2]

The bulk of the costs of the Triton system are with the additives and testing. If you want to stop doing water changes, I don't think you can skip the testing. Especially with a tank like yours, however, I would consider skipping Triton's additives and using cheaper alternatives.

Triton's calcium and carbonate alkalinity supplements actually contain trace elements. The idea is that as you use calcium and carbonate from the water and replenish them with Triton's cal/alk, the trace elements get replenished as well. If your tank has very low demand for calcium and carbonate alkalinity and you are not using much of the Triton cal/alk, you may not be replenishing trace elements as fast as your corals use them. You will likely need to dose the trace elements back manually in another way (as indicated by testing, of course). This is not a reason to avoid Triton necessarily. It just means you may not get much bang-for-your-buck by using their calcium and alkalinity supplements. So I would not use them in such a case.

If I had a system like yours, I would do a modified Triton setup. I would make sure I have a robust macro algae fuge or turf scrubber to handle nutrient export, then stop doing water changes. In the beginning, I would do a Triton test monthly. I would replace trace elements using Triton's trace elements (or a DIY version of them), and I would use a cheap two-part like Randy's DIY or Bulk Reef Supply to supplement Ca/Alk/Mg. After I got comfortable with the tank chemistry and got to know what my tank uses quickly, I would drop the testing to once every three months (or as needed if problems come up).

Using a modified system like the one described above, eventually you would be doing no water changes, which represents a pretty big cost savings on a system your size. The trade off is quite reasonable: you'd only be buying a $50 test kit once a quarter, and maybe dosing some of the more heavily used trace elements after testing.

 

[Tuffyyyyy]

 

[Greybeard]

From your stocking list, you appear to have a very low demand tank on Calc/Alk.

Triton, starting dose is 10 ml / 100l. You've got roughly 1000l of water there. 100ml/day recommended starting dose, 1000 ml bottles @ $52 per set, you're going to go through a 1l set of Core7 every 10 days. 36 sets per year, $1900. You could save about 20% by going with the 10l packaging. Don't forget to include testing, at $50 a shot.

Of course, even if you wanted to go that route, BRS is out of stock of the Core7 products... again.

Or... a 4lb bag of Kalkwasser, which is more than capable of keeping up with your low demand tank, costs $27, would give you 77 gallons of saturated kalk... probably last you half a year. You'd probably need some Magnesium... too... and water changes, what, say 20% per month? That'd be about $200 worth of salt a year.

Triton isn't marketed as the cheapest solution

 

[ZoWhat]

@Greybeard

People actually spend $2,000 flipping dollars a year in dosing and not do WCs??!??

I can buy 30, yes THIRTY, 200g premium drymix salt boxes a year with $2,000

".....and for those reasons. I'M OUT" quoting Mark Cuban




.

 

[Greybeard]

@Greybeard
People actually spend $2,000 flipping dollars a year in dosing and not do WCs??!??

I didn't even bother to look at setup costs

I must say, though... IF they could guarantee the kind of magazine layout quality reef their marketing material shows... People would throw $2k / year at them faster than they could haul it to the bank. I might even be among them. They can't. I tried Triton... didn't work for me.

I'm back to ESV b-ionic, Kalkwasser, and 15% monthly water changes. Same methods I was using decades ago. Still works

 

[Kevin Duprey]

From your stocking list, you appear to have a very low demand tank on Calc/Alk.

Triton, starting dose is 10 ml / 100l. You've got roughly 1000l of water there. 100ml/day recommended starting dose, 1000 ml bottles @ $52 per set, you're going to go through a 1l set of Core7 every 10 days. 36 sets per year, $1900. You could save about 20% by going with the 10l packaging. Don't forget to include testing, at $50 a shot.

The 10 ml / 100l is the recommendation for the older Triton Base Elements (no longer available). The newer, more concentrated Core 7 recommended dosing is 2 ml / 100l, so you would need to divide your annual costs for the additives by a factor of 5. To be clear, I'm still not advocating that this is a "low cost" reefkeeping methodology. I would advocate that it is a "low maintenance" methodology, and also follows a KISS approach that I like.

The availability issue is still bothersome though. If they work that out, I'll probably stay with it, as I've gotten my best results using this methodology, and I also advocate an "if it ain't broke" approach.

 

[Greybeard]

The 10 ml / 100l is the recommendation for the older Triton Base Elements (no longer available).

Oops.... You're absolutely right. 10ml/day was for the original base elements. I did a quick look at the official 'Triton method' brochure, scanning for starting dose, and missed that it was still showing the value for base elements. However... BRS is showing base elements in stock, so I don't know about 'no longer available'. Price is actually higher per set, but they make 10l each (mix with RO/DI water)... so final costs would be significantly lower.

Scratch that.
$1900 @ 10ml/day gives you $380 at 2ml/day Core7

Old style base elements:
$78/set, 10,000ml / 10 ml per day = 100 days per set, x 3.65 = $285 / year.

I will say... 2ml / day starting dose doesn't mean you'll use 2ml/day. The guy asking, he's got a very low demand tank. For a mature SPS tank, you might end up at 10ml/day of Core7, pushing us back to the $1900 per year cost

I _love_ the concept behind Triton. Love the idea of not doing water changes. Love their ICP testing... even if you're not using Triton, it's an incredibly valuable tool to have in the toolbox. I tried Triton. Didn't work for me, but if it had, I'd still be using it, high cost, or no.

 

[Kevin Duprey]

Oops.... You're absolutely right. 10ml/day was for the original base elements. I did a quick look at the official 'Triton method' brochure, scanning for starting dose, and missed that it was still showing the value for base elements. However... BRS is showing base elements in stock, so I don't know about 'no longer available'. Price is actually higher per set, but they make 10l each (mix with RO/DI water)... so final costs would be significantly lower.

I missed that BRS still had the original Base Elements. Most other suppliers have dropped it. Good catch.

I will say... 2ml / day starting dose doesn't mean you'll use 2ml/day. The guy asking, he's got a very low demand tank. For a mature SPS tank, you might end up at 10ml/day of Core7, pushing us back to the $1900 per year cost

For a large, mature SPS dominant tank there is probably no "low cost" option for maintaining Ca/Alk (and all other trace elements). Most end up on Calcium reactors which are not super cheap either, and can be a pain to dial in.

I _love_ the concept behind Triton. Love the idea of not doing water changes. Love their ICP testing... even if you're not using Triton, it's an incredibly valuable tool to have in the toolbox. I tried Triton. Didn't work for me, but if it had, I'd still be using it, high cost, or no.

Agreed. I have had success, and am still using it. I started on a mature system, so that probably helps. I'm now starting my new RSR 525 XL on it, and I suspect it won't go as smoothly, but that will probably be due more to lack of maturity than any specific "system".

 

[PapaWhisky]

As someone who is considering the Triton method for my next tank, I would like to ask: What is your TIME worth to you? I absolutely hated water changes. Yes, the cost of the salt was not bad, it was the time debt that drove me crazy. Haul the water, mix the salt, test the salinity, check the temperature, drain the old water, pump in the new water... Say you average 2 hours per week (104 hrs per year) in water change related activities, what is that time worth to you? For argument's sake, assume you make $25 an hour. Over the course of one year, you have lost 104 X $25 = $2,600 in monetized time. That's a lot of golf / movies / dinners!

 

[Greybeard]

As someone who is considering the Triton method for my next tank, I would like to ask: What is your TIME worth to you? I absolutely hated water changes. Yes, the cost of the salt was not bad, it was the time debt that drove me crazy. Haul the water, mix the salt, test the salinity, check the temperature, drain the old water, pump in the new water... Say you average 2 hours per week (104 hrs per year) in water change related activities, what is that time worth to you? For argument's sake, assume you make $25 an hour. Over the course of one year, you have lost 104 X $25 = $2,600 in monetized time. That's a lot of golf / movies / dinners!

As I said... if it worked for me, I'd still be using Triton. It didn't.

Their guides are all written for how to convert an existing, mature tank to Triton. IMHO, they would greatly improve things by writing up a 'how to', starting from an empty tank. Design, startup, maturation... the first year, and beyond. As far as I know, that document doesn't exist. Even if the 'right' answer is to use something else for the first year, and then migrate... it'd be nice to see that somewhere in their documentation.

As for time value, I value my time quite highly (ask my clients!) There are ways to lessen the time required to do a water change.

I'm going to do a 40 gallon water change this evening. With my Apex 'refill barrel' and 'water change' modes, and my mixing station, I can do a 40g water change in about a half hour, and I only do one water change (20%) per month. I may well end up adding a DOS unit, and setting it up for automatic water changes, at some point, which will limit my time to mixing up salt once a month.

I figure I use about $150 worth of salt a year, add in pre/carbon/DI filter replacements and half of a RO membrane a year, another $150. I figure water changes cost me $300 a year. Using your figures, 6 hours of my time would add another $150. (Good Lord, nobody tell my clients I'm only charging $25/hr for my time!). Not nearly the value you associate with it... but I suppose I did spend some money and time setting up my mixing station

 

[biecacka]

I don’t like water changes more than the next person. So I bought a DOS and set up auto water changes at about 2 gallons a day. Now, once a month I dump a bag of salt into a barrel and that’s the end of that for me....


Corey

 

[Greybeard]

I don’t like water changes more than the next person. So I bought a DOS and set up auto water changes at about 2 gallons a day. Now, once a month I dump a bag of salt into a barrel and that’s the end of that for me....


Corey

I may well be doing this in the near future. Gotta figure out a way to get rid of the changed water. I don't want the salt in my septic system, and I don't want it in the flower garden in front of my house... don't know where to run it. I'm currently dumping water changes in a gravel area, 20' from the front door, but there isn't any way to run a hose there... I'd have to dig up the blacktop. I could run it to one end of the house, but that's a 50' run in a crawlspace... and I'm more than a bit claustrophobic

 

[biecacka]

I live in an apartment and my tank is near my laundry room, I dispose of my waste water down my washers drain.

Corey

 

[vetteguy53081]

I just began the Triton method on my 360g and hoping to see cost effectiveness and better coral growth and colors using the Core 7.
I already only do water changes 2-3X per year, Due to long experience in Marine aquaria and with success. So I am looking to supplement my maintenance methods. I am still playing with the M/L amounts administered and trying to find that Happy medium.
I am TODAY, going to send my first water sample to ICP Testing and see where my tank is at so I know what needs to be dosed for future purposes and what amounts. I have 3 other tanks and am doing a comparison with Triton. My Large cube is under aquaForest method, drop off tank with Red Sea and 25 gal Elos cube using conventional methods of husbandry to see where my best results come from.
Below is 360g and 93g cube:

 

[Greybeard]

I live in an apartment and my tank is near my laundry room, I dispose of my waste water down my washers drain.

Corey

Yeah... no city sewer here. I'm out in the stix. A constant dose of salt to my septic system would _not_ be an acceptable solution. That's why I'm still carrying buckets

 

[biecacka]

:lol:
I understand.
Pump it into a large vat or barrel that can be emptied once a month or something. Like on a dolly. Or down the driveway. Just make it easy on you!

Corey

 

[Animal Chin]

Yeah... no city sewer here. I'm out in the stix. A constant dose of salt to my septic system would _not_ be an acceptable solution. That's why I'm still carrying buckets

Hey Greybeard, what about setting up like a 100+ gallon tub somewhere on your property and letting the old water evaporate so you're just left with salt to dispose of? If you're doing 40 gallons a month I bet you could just keep adding to the collection tub and let the water evaporate over time. Just a though.

 

[Greybeard]

Hey Greybeard, what about setting up like a 100+ gallon tub somewhere on your property and letting the old water evaporate so you're just left with salt to dispose of? If you're doing 40 gallons a month I bet you could just keep adding to the collection tub and let the water evaporate over time. Just a though.

Thanks for the suggestion. Summer, sure, it'd probably evaporate faster than I'm adding to it. Winter? Not so much. Also, I'm unsure what the wild critters, along with the dogs and chickens, would think of a barrel of salt water outside.

Have to think that one through. The gravel seating area in front of my car port would be great... but I'm not cutting up the blacktop to get there. There's a gravel area surrounding the heat pump on the west end of the house. That'd probably be fine... nothing growing there anyway, and it does drain away from the house.

Anyone know how DOS pumps do with 50' of hose on the outfeed side?

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

As someone who is considering the Triton method for my next tank, I would like to ask: What is your TIME worth to you? I absolutely hated water changes. Yes, the cost of the salt was not bad, it was the time debt that drove me crazy. Haul the water, mix the salt, test the salinity, check the temperature, drain the old water, pump in the new water... Say you average 2 hours per week (104 hrs per year) in water change related activities, what is that time worth to you? For argument's sake, assume you make $25 an hour. Over the course of one year, you have lost 104 X $25 = $2,600 in monetized time. That's a lot of golf / movies / dinners!

My setup is fairly inefficient by most peoples' standards, but I spend only about 10% of your 100 hour figure per year changing water. I turn on the RO/DI and let it make 22 gallons of water (I only have a 22 gallon reservoir). I come back a day or so later and transfer the first 22 gallons to my 44g Brute mixing vat. Lifting buckets isn't fun, but it doesn't take long. Maybe 10 minutes or so for the full 22 gallons. Next, let the 22 gallon can fill again, then move those 22 gallons to the 44 gallon Brute. Another 10 minutes. Next, I add an entire bag of IO salt to the 44 gallon Brute and turn on the pumps. Less than one minute. I come back the next day and verify salinity (it's always spot on). Just about one minute total testing time.

Actual water changes probably take 10 minutes as well. Drain 5 gallons from my display (or 10 gallons in the case of my octopus tank), pump some new saltwater from the Brute into 5 gallon buckets, and dump it back in. So about once every 1.5 - 2 months, I spend 2o minutes making water, and I spend 10 minutes every week doing water changes. That's about 11 hours per year making water and doing water changes.

This hobby is all about enjoyment, and at the end of the day, you should do it the way you enjoy it most. If that means no water changes, that's perfectly valid: many reefers have stopped changing water, Triton-assisted or otherwise, and still have plenty of success. Saying that one should stop doing water changes because they take too long, however, is simply not true. With a bit of planning and a bit of space, water changes can be easy and take very little time. Not having space available is about the only legitimate reason that you may have for not being able to streamline your water making process.