Levels of Phosphates, Nitrates, Light, Algae- what am I missing guys?!!

[LesPoissons]

Hi everyone,

I am clearly missing something in phosphate/nitrate/algae situation. My tank is a 3+ yr old mixed reef. The last 4 months have been nonstop issues. I do not understand all the conflicting information on phosphate/nitrates/algae and lights. Please help, I’m about done.

I had a massive GHA outbreak due to way overfeeding corals. I use a carbon/gfo reactor. My phos was reading 0 to possibly .05, my nitrates were 0 to possibly 3 (hard to tell). Everyone said they were that low bc the algae was “eating” it all, my corals were pale bc they were starving for nutrients, (but don’t feed the corals anymore bc they get what they need from the fish and the fish food food and overfeeding causes algae.)

Fast forward a few months- changed to food grade storage for ato water, changed out my sump for a larger one, manually removed as much gha as possible, switched to only blue lights. GHA 98% gone. The values are exactly the same.

Now my tank is on blues, the skimmer is just flowing into the tank, the filter socks are on only for micro bubbles and not being changed, the fish are fat and happy.

My values stand at 0 to maybe 0.05 phos, 0 to maybe 3 nitrates. Corals are growing but kinda pale in color, not a ton of polyp extension on the leather etc.

Turn the white lights back on for the last 5 days. GHA sprouting up everywhere almost covers a whole rock in a few days. Values still exactly the same. And people are saying I need to dose phos and nitrate bc they are too low and that’s the problem?

I don’t understand. I have no idea how to limit gha unless I only have blue light on and that isn’t normal!!! Im at my wit’s end. Thoughts? Thank you

 

[Drex]

Following

 

[watdachuck]

Also following...

Curious what your tank turnover is to your sump? I have had GHA issues before also when values were very low. No clue....

 

[laverda]

I have had very good results using ATSs to out compete with the GHA in the tank. Buy growing it under ideal conditions in my ATSs I can control the nutrient levels in my tank via the light schedule. My can build an ATS for $1.00 more then the cost of the light and fit it in to pretty much any system. The proper light is what really makes or breaks it in my opinion. Inexpensive red and blue LED grow lights work much better than anything else I have tried. Check out my DIY thread on inexpensive ATSs for some ideas on adding one to your system.
What test kits are you using?

 

[BeejReef]

Doesn't sound like nutrients are the likely culprit does it? Have you turkey bastered your rocks to get rid of any loose material that may be a food source?
How robust is your CUC?
What changed between 3yo established tank and today? Just the aggressive coral feeding?

I'm just tossing ideas out there for you to ponder.
Maybe you have one of those unfortunate strains of algae that aren't bothered by ultra-low nutrients or that favor ammonia?
Maybe the aggressive feeding allowed the algae to get a stronger foothold than it had in the past and you'll need more sustained manual removal or more CUC to win this mini battle?

best of luck to you.. sounds like a pita

 

[laverda]

FYI for any rocks you can remove easily pouring a little hydrogen peroxide over them will kill the GHA. It will also kill copapods and brittle stars. A lot of corals can tolerate it but I would pour around them.

 

[Pete_the_Puma]

A picture of your tank might be helpful, save you from a thousand word description

 

[LesPoissons]

Hi,
I dont know what an ATS. If it's an algae scrubber, already tried it. Sized apropriately and covered in a thick mat of algae in a week. It didn't out compete anything, it was just another area to grow more algae and clean, unfortunatley. Ive also tried algae "medicine" (ex fluconizole) and nothing. I dont think nutrient control is needed- nutrients seem to stay low on their own- and low apparently has 0 effect on algae growth! I have also manually removed every rock that I could reach that had algae on it and sprayed it down with peroxide, waited, scrubbed, and rinsed it and returned it to the tank and its all growing back. For CUC, I have 5 urchins, maybe twenty hermits, maybe 10 to 15 snails, a couple serpent stars and emerald crabs. Tried 3 sea Hares, they all died quickly. 3 Tangs (hippo, yellow, bristletooth) 2 algae blennies. I dont blow off my rocks, but I never did before I overfed the corals either. The period of overfeeding (probably a month) was the only thing that changed in the tank before I started making changes trying to fix it. Im so frustrated.

The only thing that has worked for me is using only blue lights, and I dont like the tank that way.

Flow through the sump is fast? 1750gph so tank turn over is about 7-8x per hour?

I use Salifert and Sea Chem test kits.

I dont know what else to do for algae issue!!!!

 

[LesPoissons]

None of the algae in the pics was there May 31st. I turned on my white lights to 1% after weeks of only blues. Blues re at 50%, 9 hrs, whites are 1%, 8 hrs. So from 5 days of 1% white light, the algae is coming back in force.

 

[BeejReef]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-fight-with-green-hair-algae-you-can-win.334892/

RobertP waged a scorched earth campaign reporting similar parameters to you.
The endless siphon to sump sounds like an interesting idea.

 

[serwobow]

Fluconazole worked for GHA in my tank. Took about a month for the GHA to start to disappear, but it worked.
Also, not sure how many emerald crabs you have, but adding more of them might also do the trick (1 per 5 gallons). Snails and hermits won't eat it.

 

[GabeM]

I've been battling GHA and every 2-3 days I attack with a toothbrush and suck everything into a filter sock via siphon to sump. I think I am slowly winning.

 

[LesPoissons]

These are great ideas and yes I tried fluconazole too, did nothing. I tried peroxide too and it's still coming back Now I scrub rocks with a brush, and syphon to the sump as I scrub, into a stocking tied to the end of the tube so I can remove the algae from the tank. I have a fuge, the cheato doesn't affect the phos/nitrate levels or the gha.

I could try NoPox as the article suggests, but it's just a nitrate and phosphate remover. My parameters are already very close to zero as far as I can tell, they stay this low even when there is no algae and the skimmer isnt skimming and the filter bags arent changed. Im not sure NoPox would do much? My Nitates arent even 8 like the guy in the article and he said it stressed his corals a lot.

So.... ill try to beef up the cleaning crew but 1 emerald/5g is 44 crabs and I thought they just went mostly for bubble algae? My algae grew probably 12 square inches in 5 days. I will need the rocks crawling with crabs to keep up with that if 2 blennies and 3 tangs didnt dent it. I thought once I got rid of the majority of the algae, the fish and the cuc would keep it under control if it came back. They were miles behind in 5 days.

This may be a dumb question but could it be just my lights? I have 3 165 VIParSpectra LEDs. They are 1-2 yrs old, but I didnt think Leds needed replacement like the lifespan of my old T5s?

Thank you all for the help. I know this is a repeat issue and I really appreciate people taking the time to read and discuss it with me!

 

[laverda]

ATS is an algae turf scrubber. If it grewalgae in a week that should be an indicator it is doing something. How long did you run it for? Your tight it is just another place to grow algae. The hole point it of it is to grow it outside your display where it can be easily harvested. If one was not enough to make a difference perhaps you need to run 2 or run it 24/7 for a while.

 

[BeejReef]

I'm sorry. It sounds like you're really on top of it. You might have to grind out a win of attrition, WWI-Style

Is it that your CUC doesn't eat it, or that it just grows faster than they can keep up?

Don't take any of the following as advise on what to do. I'm just brainstorming with you.
You say you tried flucanizole.. what about something specifically for gha, like vibrant?
Do you do regular water changes? The algae is eating something. It has to eat something.
Have you double checked for possible ammonia? I know it's extremely unlikely, but the algae is eating something. it has to.
Are you sure there isn't a layer of coral food caked into the cracks and crevices of your rocks? In your pictures, it looks like most of the major algae tufts are growing out of holes and recesses in your rock work.
Do you have a real good camera, magnifying glass, microscope... any way to identify the exact species. If you can get a chunk out of the tank onto a white background and get a real good zoomed pic, someone on here might be able to id it for you.

The only advise I can give is don't give up and try to look on this is a really cool challenge to overcome and earn your reefing Officer's Stripes.
I wonder what percentage of people make three years like you have? I'm going home tonight and going nuclear on a dime-sized piece of algae I noticed bc your algae hell is scaring me.

Also a few things you didn't mention in your initial post that might help someone.
What's your DT and sump size?
What are your other levels, calc, magnesium, alk, ph, generally running at?
What levels are you running on your vivaspectra's and for what photoperiod, mounting height, par, etc.
What is your water source?

 

[Saltyreef]

Possibly rockwork leaching phosphates that your algae is LOVING and consuming before it gets into your testable water column?
When was the last time you did a good cleaning?
The last real bad outbreak i had with GHA was solved by manual removal and mexican turbo snails. 1 per 10 gallons. Golf ball size. They still keep it at bay inside the tank, it still grows a bit where they cant get it. Like inside my overflow U tube.

 

[LesPoissons]

Hi = )
I ran the algae scrubber for about 6 weeks. It grew a massive amount of algae, which I then had to consistently clean- it just added more cost and maintenance to the tank and did not affect the water parameters or the amount of algae in my display. It was sized to my tank but if I needed a 2nd one to get the benefits, there is not enough room for it.

I am hesitant to try something like Vibrant, as I understand it is just a boost of beneficial bacteria to out consume resources in the tank- like carbon/vodka dosing. I tried carbon dosing, and it had 0 affect except a bacterial bloom which I then had to undo with a UV sterilizer to fix- but I will read more about it and see if it an option.

I religiously do 25% water changes every 2 weeks. The ammonia level is at zero as far as my tests reads. I blow off the rocks at each water change with my power heads, but that is the only time I blow them off. Some sand and debris are blown around of course, but there is not a bunch of uneaten fish food or detritus that comes up at all.

The pictures don’t take in the detail of all of my tank, the algae is happily growing vertically on the walls of the overflow compartments, its growing around most of my corals which are situated on top of the rockwork, on the silicone if it can, and yes in the crevices and holes too- but def bot limited to those areas.

My display tank is a 220g, my sump is a 55g. I run an eshopps skimmer, gfo/carbon reactor, chaeto in the fuge. Tank turnover is 7-8x per hour

Sal: 1.026

Ph: 8.25

Cal: 420

Phos: 0 -0.05

Nitrate- 0- 3

Ammonia- 0

Mag- 1215 (this is low but currently dosing with Kent Tech M to bring it up, my last bag of salt mix was oddly low in Mag)

Dhk/alk: 8.03/2.96

My 165W ViParSepctras (3 of them) are mounted 8 inches off the water line. They run at 50% blues right now for 8 hours. (I had them on 1% whites for 5 days and the algae came running back) The rockwork is probably 10 inches below the water line. I have no idea what the par is unfortunately, I just remember reading reviews on amazon (product no longer there) that 50% was around the “sweet spot” for most corals.

Attached is a pic of my bothersome algae. I will also post in a separate thread to double check ID. = )

 

[MabuyaQ]

How old are the test kits for NO3 and PO4 and have your measurements been confirmed (preferably with a different brand and the test done by another person)?
GHA only tends to grow this agressive (taking over rocks within days) with elevated nitrates. Many species will survive on low phosphates because they can use the phosphates stored in rocks.

 

[LesPoissons]

The tests expire December of 2020. I have a new nitrate test kit from a different company coming next week in case its somehow not working, but the phosphate test is like 6 months old. I had my spouse rerun all my water tests (cal, mag, alk, ph etc) in case of repeated operator error or somehow or grossly misinterpreting colors, we got the same results on everything. Plus, this isnt new. My tank has been running for over 3 years. Ive had low nutrients for almost 2 years (other than that 1 month when i massively overfed coral and started all this), Ive used different tests in the past, etc. In a rock leaching situation, my phosphates are almost 0 with no algae in the tank. If they were to be leaching out phos, they would leach out until the amount in the water was equivalent with what is "stored" in the rock, so to speak, until the levels match or the rock is "empty." 0 or near 0 levels after 3 years wouldnt really line up with the rocks leaching it. If its leaving the rock in enough amounts to fuel algae, and the idea is that algae somehow uses every bit of it before it is testable, it should be testable when there is no algae as well- and there is no change in my levels, with or without algae.

So, after all this discussion, I think for all intents and purposes, we can safely assume algae can survive and even thrive in super low nutrient tanks when temp and light are sufficient once it gets a foot hold. (unless my test kits have failed, which will find out asap when the new ones come). I cant furthur limit the nitrates or phos, so I need to find ways to kill it chemically or keep it under control. I still dont understand how it is coming back so fast and strong though, and again, all this kicked off with a massive coral over feed and a slow reaction to do anything, not thinking it would gets so bad! 6 months ago I had 0 algae in my tank and everything else was the same. So I guess next up is doubling up my cuc with a lot more emeralds, hermits, turbos etc. or trying something like vibrant to see if I can kill it off to nothing.

 

[MabuyaQ]

I just wanted to eliminate testing error from the equation.

The problem with running low nutrience for extended periods of time is that you lose most of the benificial bacteria that are your first line of defence against pests like algae and cyano when something happens to your tank that causes nutrients to rise.
When you overfed your tank this GHA became the major consumer of PO4 and NO3 and that you stopped overfeeding doesn't matter. There are plenty of fish in your tank that produce nitrate and phosphate for your GHA to consume (and it takes years to deplete PO4 from rock) so they just staid the primairy consumer of nutrients.
You already made the environment less benificial for algae by taking away light, but you haven't made the environment more benificial for bacteria. That would be my advice.
Either get a piece of really fresh liferock or some bacteria supplement and start dosing a carbon source. You had a bacterial bloom before. Those only happen when dosing to much carbon at once or dosages follow eachother to quickly in the presence of sufficient NO3 and PO4. Take it slow when dosing carbon because it is going to take some time before your bacterial population has become the primairy consumer of NO3 and PO4.