Lighting Questions for the SPS Pros

[creefer]

I have 3 panels w/ 24 3w cree LED's each, on my 180 for a total of 72 LEDs (I was using the ones from Modular LED in canada).... everyone says under powered but they were doing what I wanted them to do.

Also, I was feeding 1-2 good size chunks of the homemade brew from Reef Paradise (local LFS for those that are wondering lol) that has a little of everything in it to my 20some fish, and dosing 1 part vodka, 2 parts vinegar.

Good to know....My fish LOVE Andy's homemade brew! They go nuts for it.

Carbon dosing...interesting subject......My old tank I was using vinegar with some success. Now, I'm using biopellets and am interested to see what happens over time. I've started slow and will continue to move slow, so we shall see. I didn't want to do vinegar solely again due to pH issues and not vodka solely due to cyano issues. Never really thought of doing them together.

 

[chort55]

Ultimately, I have quit dosing vodka because of the cyano issues, although it took longer to appear with the mix then it did solely using vodka and wasnt as bad.

 

[Ike]

Carbon as a food source will not be discerning as to what type of bacteria it will feed. Also, it's too easy to drive nutrients too low.

I use all ATI lamps. If I do move to MH, it will be with 20K radiums and T5 supplements.

Unrelated to lighting, why are you adverse to carbon dosing?

 

[hscoert]

Very interesting topic. Following along!

 

[creefer]

Ok.....so.......

I changed all filters in my RODI less the membrane. It's not quite 2 years old and I run a relatively small system. I'm back to reading 0 tds again.

I also stumbled upon a trade opportunity for a 150w hamilton reefstar pendant. So, I grabbed it. It's in decent shape, not perfect, simply decent.I'm not going to do anything with it just yet. I want to see what results I get with the hanna checkers I picked up, so we'll go from there.

 

[creefer]

Next update...

Got my Hanna and it's reading 0.00 on phosphate. I understand there's a margin of error of .03 or something? Someone correctly me if I'm wrong, but in any case the amount of PO4 in the system is negligible. I remain confused with some of my corals being s bit pale. Not all, just some.

With some of you recommending increased feedings, and the addition of aminos, what frequency would be recommended for aminos? I'm currently increasing the feedings. I welcome any advise you all have.

TIA.

 

[Big E]

Got my Hanna and it's reading 0.00 on phosphate. I understand there's a margin of error of .03 or something? Someone correctly me if I'm wrong, but in any case the amount of PO4 in the system is negligible. I remain confused with some of my corals being s bit pale.

Because the corals are starving..........there isn't enough nutrients running through your system. Nutrients being defined as food particles & also phosphate & nitrate.

People seem to miss the idea the readings you get are what's left over. If you don't put enough in the tank to begin with the corals never have a chance to feed. That's why some are recommending feeding more or adding aminos. You need to get more nutrients into your system.

My suggestion would be to add a coral food of known contents or add another fish or just feed more often. Don't chase the numbers let the corals get their zoo back & color up. When things start to look good than take some readings so you can find the sweet spot for your tank.

The other option is to reduce the amount you export & keep your feeding regime the same..........like use less pellets or reduce vinegar/vodka dosing,less GFO ect.

The main thing is you have to find a balance for your tank that the acros like. Mimicking some other tank doesn't work.........no two tanks are the same. Use the numbers as guidelines not something written in stone. Go slow & do one change at a time.........give it a good 4-6 weeks to show results. Being patient will reward you with a big payoff in the end.

Your T5 lighting is perfectly fine.

 

[Chameleon]

Carbon as a food source will not be discerning as to what type of bacteria it will feed. Also, it's too easy to drive nutrients too low.

Check your sources here. As a biochemist working in the microbiology field I can account for the fact that various bacteria do use different carbon sources at different rates. You can even visually see differences when growing bacteria on mannose vs sucrose plates...two very similar sugars. The difference between ethanol and acetic acid is even more pronounced then the previous mentioned sugars and would definitely have a role on which bacteria can best utilize it in their metabolic pathways. Think of it this way, each bacteria species has its own genome where it encodes for its enzymes used in its metabolic pathways. Well each genome is going to be regulated and expression of various enzymes involved in metabolic pathways is going to be unique. This means some bacteria will be better equipped to metabolize some carbon sources then others. While carbon dosing with either source leads to somewhat proportional bacterial blooms and therefore somewhat proportional nutrient export by means of the bacteria, one can not assume the bacteria populations involved in this are the same between a tank being dosed with vinegar as a carbon source and one dosed with vodka. JMT
Sorry for derail...

 

[Chameleon]

Because the corals are starving..........there isn't enough nutrients running through your system. Nutrients being defined as food particles & also phosphate & nitrate.

People seem to miss the idea the readings you get are what's left over. If you don't put enough in the tank to begin with the corals never have a chance to feed. That's why some are recommending feeding more or adding aminos. You need to get more nutrients into your system.

My suggestion would be to add a coral food of known contents or add another fish or just feed more often. Don't chase the numbers let the corals get their zoo back & color up. When things start to look good than take some readings so you can find the sweet spot for your tank.

The other option is to reduce the amount you export & keep your feeding regime the same..........like use less pellets or reduce vinegar/vodka dosing,less GFO ect.

The main thing is you have to find a balance for your tank that the acros like. Mimicking some other tank doesn't work.........no two tanks are the same. Use the numbers as guidelines not something written in stone. Go slow & do one change at a time.........give it a good 4-6 weeks to show results. Being patient will reward you with a big payoff in the end.

Your T5 lighting is perfectly fine.

great advice here...

 

[creefer]

Because the corals are starving..........there isn't enough nutrients running through your system. Nutrients being defined as food particles & also phosphate & nitrate.

People seem to miss the idea the readings you get are what's left over. If you don't put enough in the tank to begin with the corals never have a chance to feed. That's why some are recommending feeding more or adding aminos. You need to get more nutrients into your system.

My suggestion would be to add a coral food of known contents or add another fish or just feed more often. Don't chase the numbers let the corals get their zoo back & color up. When things start to look good than take some readings so you can find the sweet spot for your tank.

The other option is to reduce the amount you export & keep your feeding regime the same..........like use less pellets or reduce vinegar/vodka dosing,less GFO ect.

The main thing is you have to find a balance for your tank that the acros like. Mimicking some other tank doesn't work.........no two tanks are the same. Use the numbers as guidelines not something written in stone. Go slow & do one change at a time.........give it a good 4-6 weeks to show results. Being patient will reward you with a big payoff in the end.

Your T5 lighting is perfectly fine.

Thanks for the advice. I agree with Chameleon....it's certainly is good information.

I'm suspect on the issue of nutrients, though. I have some algae on the sand bed of some sort. Cheato in the sump is still growing. It has not receded or started to die off in any way insofar as I can tell anyway. I did get a little bit of cyano when I started pellets but it quickly went away. I'm not using the full recommended dose of pellets, either. I'm using about 25% of the recommended volume. Since I started this thread, I've started feeding more. This is the only change to the system that I plan to make over the next several weeks, as suggested. I do run just a little bit of rowaphos, approximately 2 tbs. that's changed out once every three weeks or so. I will continue to monitor PO4 levels every other day to see how the system responds to increased feedings. I've been feeding both fish and corals more regularly as of late. I'm feeding LPS (very few in my system, btw) every third day and SPS every third day alternating from the LPS feedings. And, it's not all of the corals that are pale. Some are still rather vibrant while others are simply not.

Thanks for the words of wisdom. I certainly appreciate and welcome any more insight from the pros. I'm still a bit of a noob....only been at the reefing game for a couple of years and just recently started "stick fever". I have even considered reducing water changes to bi-weekly but don't want to do so until I see how the system responds to increased feedings.

 

[creefer]

Check your sources here. As a biochemist working in the microbiology field I can account for the fact that various bacteria do use different carbon sources at different rates. You can even visually see differences when growing bacteria on mannose vs sucrose plates...two very similar sugars. The difference between ethanol and acetic acid is even more pronounced then the previous mentioned sugars and would definitely have a role on which bacteria can best utilize it in their metabolic pathways. Think of it this way, each bacteria species has its own genome where it encodes for its enzymes used in its metabolic pathways. Well each genome is going to be regulated and expression of various enzymes involved in metabolic pathways is going to be unique. This means some bacteria will be better equipped to metabolize some carbon sources then others. While carbon dosing with either source leads to somewhat proportional bacterial blooms and therefore somewhat proportional nutrient export by means of the bacteria, one can not assume the bacteria populations involved in this are the same between a tank being dosed with vinegar as a carbon source and one dosed with vodka. JMT
Sorry for derail...

Good insight. I appreciate the detail.

 

[creefer]

A little update here....

I have been increasing feeding consistently. Still getting 0.00 on hanna for PO4. Colors on all the green and yellow acros have improved. Blues, reds, and purples are lacking. I have a Red Planet that's lacking color and a TDF that is seeming pale as well however both, particularly the TDF, have good PE. I also have a rose millie that has very nice color, outrageous PE, and a Wayne's rainbow that is equally as nice with a beautiful green base. It seems that slowly colors are becoming more vibrant however reds and purples are still meh.....

Also, I'm selling my Aquatic Life 6 x 39 T5. I found a killer deal on an ATI 6 x 39 sunpower that I can't pass up, so I'm grabbing it while I can.

 

[Giancarlo]

Update? I find myself in the same situation, somewhat reluctant to increase feeding...

 

[creefer]

Update? I find myself in the same situation, somewhat reluctant to increase feeding...

It's only been a couple of weeks since I increased feedings, so it's difficult to tell yet if there are any changes. I did take the GFO reactor off line in an event to see if the PO4 rises. I'll keep this thread updated.

 

[Chameleon]

Be careful acclimating coral to the ATI as it puts out a lot more light than most t5 fixtures. Bulb combo can come into play when trying to get the best of certain colors out of your sps. I am not up to date on the t5 game so I cant tell you which combos seem to work well for which colors. Seems like you are on the right track with the increased nutrients, just keep it in under observation to make sure you dont overdo it. Good luck

A little update here....

I have been increasing feeding consistently. Still getting 0.00 on hanna for PO4. Colors on all the green and yellow acros have improved. Blues, reds, and purples are lacking. I have a Red Planet that's lacking color and a TDF that is seeming pale as well however both, particularly the TDF, have good PE. I also have a rose millie that has very nice color, outrageous PE, and a Wayne's rainbow that is equally as nice with a beautiful green base. It seems that slowly colors are becoming more vibrant however reds and purples are still meh.....

Also, I'm selling my Aquatic Life 6 x 39 T5. I found a killer deal on an ATI 6 x 39 sunpower that I can't pass up, so I'm grabbing it while I can.

 

[creefer]

Be careful acclimating coral to the ATI as it puts out a lot more light than most t5 fixtures. Bulb combo can come into play when trying to get the best of certain colors out of your sps. I am not up to date on the t5 game so I cant tell you which combos seem to work well for which colors. Seems like you are on the right track with the increased nutrients, just keep it in under observation to make sure you dont overdo it. Good luck

Thanks for the advice, and sound advice it is. My plan is to install the ATI fixture twice as high as the fixture I'm currently using for the first week and gradually lower it weekly thereafter to see how things respond.

Regarding the increased nutrients, I have watched that closely and have been testing ever other day to see where things go. I'm interested to see how the tank responds to pulling the GFO off line as well. I started stocking the tank more heavily with corals just prior to the addition of the biopellets, so I have not increased the pellet volume at all for fear of stripping the water completely. At this point, I don't have plans to increase the pellet volume at all. The macro that has been growing in the fuge since setting this system up seems to have slowed considerably. I can only assume this to be a sign of the pellets coming alive, so to speak. I did some trimming of the macro in an effort to determine more accurately if growth has ceased.

There is one observation that I can note since increasing tank feedings. There appears to be algae growth in the sump that I have not before seen. I did see some cyano in the sump, however very little to none in the display. It seems to appear a day or 2 prior to WC then it's gone after the WC.

It's interesting for me to reflect on my previous Solana AIO relative to SPS color and growth. I never used pellets however did use carbon and GFO. Carbon was passive and GFO was run in a TLF 150. SPS growth was good, color was good, but I had more of an algae issue in that system. I was getting low PO4 readings, but that was also before I purchased a Hanna checker, so I'm not confident that the readings were entirely accurate. For lighting that tank, I used a Maxspect G2-110W LED that had no dimming function, nor optics and it was suspended above the tank about 8". It may be that the Solana harbored more available nutrients that were not detrimental to SPS growth and coloration but it did take nearly a year before colors really came alive. I had a rose millie that was brown until I put T5 over that tank for about a month prior to setting up the current system. Only upon introduction to T5 did the rose millie color up. It based down pretty well over a year and sprouted many vertical pieces but didn't show any good coloration until the move to T5.

 

[Chameleon]

cyano can be indicative of low nitrates and presence phosphates. this is because cyano can fix its own nitrogen from N2 and doesn't need organic nitrogen to grow. what are you nitrate levels? keep in mind all organisms need nitrate and low levels are often preferred over no nitrogen even in sps systems

 

[Ike]

While different carbon sources may be consumed at difference rates, it doesn't change the fact that carbon dosing in our tanks will feed a variety of bacteria, some that we may want to promote and some that we don't. Also, bacterial colonies within corals must be changed on some level as a result of the additional carbon source being available, and the unknowns there are a little scary. That's my main point when it comes to carbon dosing; no one really understands the full scope of what's going on once they start adding various carbon sources.

With the efficiency of protein skimmers available on the market it's pretty simple to maintain undetectable nitrates and very low nutrients in general even on heavily stocked and fed systems. This won't fully take care of phosphates, but neither will carbon dosing. For those reasons I just don't think carbon dosing is a good solution for achieving a successful tank in the longterm. I've seen too many negatives over the last few years that I suspect are the result of carbon dosing.

Check your sources here. As a biochemist working in the microbiology field I can account for the fact that various bacteria do use different carbon sources at different rates. You can even visually see differences when growing bacteria on mannose vs sucrose plates...two very similar sugars. The difference between ethanol and acetic acid is even more pronounced then the previous mentioned sugars and would definitely have a role on which bacteria can best utilize it in their metabolic pathways. Think of it this way, each bacteria species has its own genome where it encodes for its enzymes used in its metabolic pathways. Well each genome is going to be regulated and expression of various enzymes involved in metabolic pathways is going to be unique. This means some bacteria will be better equipped to metabolize some carbon sources then others. While carbon dosing with either source leads to somewhat proportional bacterial blooms and therefore somewhat proportional nutrient export by means of the bacteria, one can not assume the bacteria populations involved in this are the same between a tank being dosed with vinegar as a carbon source and one dosed with vodka. JMT
Sorry for derail...

 

[creefer]

Nitrate is barely detectable. I'll test again and report back.

 

[LILBUDDHA]

A little update here....

I have been increasing feeding consistently. Still getting 0.00 on hanna for PO4. Colors on all the green and yellow acros have improved. Blues, reds, and purples are lacking. I have a Red Planet that's lacking color and a TDF that is seeming pale as well however both, particularly the TDF, have good PE. I also have a rose millie that has very nice color, outrageous PE, and a Wayne's rainbow that is equally as nice with a beautiful green base. It seems that slowly colors are becoming more vibrant however reds and purples are still meh.....


Also, I'm selling my Aquatic Life 6 x 39 T5. I found a killer deal on an ATI 6 x 39 sunpower that I can't pass up, so I'm grabbing it while I can.

I agree with some other posts that you may be stripping the tank clean .
What happened after the water change ? How often are you changing the water and how much ? I would think this would help since it should replace some elements that the skimmer and bio pellets are removing .IME with carbon dosing, I had to either step up the water changes or add lugol's to bring blues and purples back that paled.
Feeding the tank more helps but are there enough fish to make poop for the corals to see any benefit ? In my case feeding did not help as I have only 2 fish in my tank .
I have seen awesome zeovit tanks but one product that sticks out and does what it says with or without a full zeovit system is the Pohl's Extra . It does what it says it does .

Glad to hear you scored a great fixture but I feel the lights you had were doing just fine .