Lionfish Cloudy Eyes and Flashing, advice please

[sawrip]

Hello fellow reefers and happy Christmas!

This is my first post and I will shortly plan on introducing myself fully in the forum, unfortunately I feel this post needs to come first.

I have a concern at present which has me rather worried and was hoping some of you could advise myself. I have a Antanta Lionfish and he has developed a cloudy eye and I have seen him flashing against the rockwork a few times.

I suffered with a Chaeto collapse about four days ago which i suspect may have spiked ammonia levels even though all my tests are coming back fine, it overflowed the skimmer back into the sump overnight. My puffer also seems to have developed a small bacteria infection on his nose sadly. The Lionfish is eating loaded ghost shrimp but it's swimming seems a little jerky rather than floating around (if that makes sense)

My biggest worry is the dreaded velvet but hopefully that's not the case. The system is a FOWLR with a Fumanchu lion, Snowflake Eel and pair of Maroon Clowns.

 

[Timfish]

Honestly, sounds like a parasite problem to me. Research both uronema and velvet.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hello fellow reefers and happy Christmas!

This is my first post and I will shortly plan on introducing myself fully in the forum, unfortunately I feel this post needs to come first.

I have a concern at present which has me rather worried and was hoping some of you could advise myself. I have a Antanta Lionfish and he has developed a cloudy eye and I have seen him flashing against the rockwork a few times.

I suffered with a Chaeto collapse about four days ago which i suspect may have spiked ammonia levels even though all my tests are coming back fine, it overflowed the skimmer back into the sump overnight. My puffer also seems to have developed a small bacteria infection on his nose sadly. The Lionfish is eating loaded ghost shrimp but it's swimming seems a little jerky rather than floating around (if that makes sense)

My biggest worry is the dreaded velvet but hopefully that's not the case. The system is a FOWLR with a Fumanchu lion, Snowflake Eel and pair of Maroon Clowns.

Cloudy eyes and flashing both suggest flukes or secondary bacterial but may very well be flukes.
Is it one eye or both eyes that are hazy ?
If both, you will want to set up a quarantine tank and treat with seachem kanaplex with air stone added for increased oxygen

 

[Cell]

@lion king

 

[sawrip]

Cloudy eyes and flashing both suggest flukes or secondary bacterial but may very well be flukes.
Is it one eye or both eyes that are hazy ?
If both, you will want to set up a quarantine tank and treat with seachem kanaplex with air stone added for increased oxygen

Thank you for the reply, it's just the one eye at present. Sadly Kanaplex is a little tricky to get hold of in the UK but thinking of going with Fluke Solve which is the same ingredient as Prazipro.

 

[lion king]

How long have had him.

Best case could be his reaction to the imbalance in your water system causing him to shed. Lions will shed their outer layer possibly as a normal function or a reaction to changing water chemistry or an attack from parasites or other disease. The eyes can get cloudy, color fade, and the flashing is to help shed the skin; their appetite may wain for a feeding but usually not long. Maintain feeding live and include fish like guppies or appropriate sized mollies, the live gut flora and added nutritional value of live fish may help. Maintain optimum water quality.

If they go off feeding for more than one or two offerings and they are hanging at the surface or in line with strong water flow, it could be flukes. This is easily treated with prazi pro. Other wise healthy lions in good water conditions will usually fight off protazoan type diseases like velvet and ick. If you keep good water quality and continue to feed live, including fish; it will be likely they can also recover on their own. Once a lion develops a protazoan disease their health is already so compromised they will likely not survive; copper is not a solution for treatment, even if they survive treatment they usually die shortly afterwards. The one eye may point to an initial onset of a bacterial infection, which in turn will clear itself if kept with optimum water conditions and a live diet.

If flukes are determined and prazi pro is used; if their appetite doesn't return, you may need to follow up with general cure. General cure contains both prazi and metro which is best for a broad treatment of parasites and worms, but prazi pro is more effective on flukes. Make sure to do follow up dose for any hatching eggs. If you have had for less than a month, internal parasites is still a concern, and general cure is a better option. Even though gc contains prazi, for some reason I've never found it to be effective on flukes, so be sure of your prognosis.

 

[sawrip]

How long have had him.

Best case could be his reaction to the imbalance in your water system causing him to shed. Lions will shed their outer layer possibly as a normal function or a reaction to changing water chemistry or an attack from parasites or other disease. The eyes can get cloudy, color fade, and the flashing is to help shed the skin; their appetite may wain for a feeding but usually not long. Maintain feeding live and include fish like guppies or appropriate sized mollies, the live gut flora and added nutritional value of live fish may help. Maintain optimum water quality.

If they go off feeding for more than one or two offerings and they are hanging at the surface or in line with strong water flow, it could be flukes. This is easily treated with prazi pro. Other wise healthy lions in good water conditions will usually fight off protazoan type diseases like velvet and ick. If you keep good water quality and continue to feed live, including fish; it will be likely they can also recover on their own. Once a lion develops a protazoan disease their health is already so compromised they will likely not survive; copper is not a solution for treatment, even if they survive treatment they usually die shortly afterwards. The one eye may point to an initial onset of a bacterial infection, which in turn will clear itself if kept with optimum water conditions and a live diet.

If flukes are determined and prazi pro is used; if their appetite doesn't return, you may need to follow up with general cure. General cure contains both prazi and metro which is best for a broad treatment of parasites and worms, but prazi pro is more effective on flukes. Make sure to do follow up dose for any hatching eggs. If you have had for less than a month, internal parasites is still a concern, and general cure is a better option. Even though gc contains prazi, for some reason I've never found it to be effective on flukes, so be sure of your prognosis.

Thank you for taking the time out for such a detailed reply.

He is just over two weeks old from the LFS, I only live feed a combo of guppies and ghost shrimp gut loaded. I did wonder about shedding as part of the cloudyness seems to be waving a little away from the eyeball and he's lost his vivid colour.

I did let water quality slip for a short while when the skimmer overflowed but this was only for a day or so - all showing 0 test wise expect nitrate at 0.3 (I dose for this as zeros out otherwise).

He seems to be laying on the bottom or vertically against the top of the wier overflow, gill movement doesn't seem fast or erratic and he's not gulping for air.

General cure is not available over here so will have to import it, may go down the Prazi route first if his behaviour seems inline with flukes.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thank you for taking the time out for such a detailed reply.

He is just over two weeks old from the LFS, I only live feed a combo of guppies and ghost shrimp gut loaded. I did wonder about shedding as part of the cloudyness seems to be waving a little away from the eyeball and he's lost his vivid colour.

I did let water quality slip for a short while when the skimmer overflowed but this was only for a day or so - all showing 0 test wise expect nitrate at 0.3 (I dose for this as zeros out otherwise).

He seems to be laying on the bottom or vertically against the top of the wier overflow, gill movement doesn't seem fast or erratic and he's not gulping for air.

General cure is not available over here so will have to import it, may go down the Prazi route first if his behaviour seems inline with flukes.

Guppies and goldfish while enticing should not be a primary food as they often carry disease. After 2 weeks in tank, you want to try frozen foods such as silversides, pieces of fish, krill to adapt it to clean nutrition.
For flukes in your country- you can use fluke-stop or Sera tremazol similar to praziPro

 

[lion king]

Thank you for taking the time out for such a detailed reply.

He is just over two weeks old from the LFS, I only live feed a combo of guppies and ghost shrimp gut loaded. I did wonder about shedding as part of the cloudyness seems to be waving a little away from the eyeball and he's lost his vivid colour.

I did let water quality slip for a short while when the skimmer overflowed but this was only for a day or so - all showing 0 test wise expect nitrate at 0.3 (I dose for this as zeros out otherwise).

He seems to be laying on the bottom or vertically against the top of the wier overflow, gill movement doesn't seem fast or erratic and he's not gulping for air.

General cure is not available over here so will have to import it, may go down the Prazi route first if his behaviour seems inline with flukes.

I've used live guppies in my feeding regimen for over 20 years, they have a similar protein and fat profile as their native diets and carry beneficial elements for the immune system and overall health due to being a complete food including live gut flora and bone.

Prazi pro treatment would be safe either way and not a bad idea. Make sure to dose to water volume and not tank size, carefully considering displacement. Prazi may initially effect feeding but usually only last a day or 2.

 

[sawrip]

I've used live guppies in my feeding regimen for over 20 years, they have a similar protein and fat profile as their native diets and carry beneficial elements for the immune system and overall health due to being a complete food including live gut flora and bone.

Prazi pro treatment would be safe either way and not a bad idea. Make sure to dose to water volume and not tank size, carefully considering displacement. Prazi may initially effect feeding but usually only last a day or 2.

Thanks, really helpful advice. I will start in a day or so when I get the Fluke Solve and see how we go.

 

[lion king]

You inspired me to write this thread, check it out'

Assessing the use of antibiotics in lionfish/scorps

Just as with humans, antibiotics are greatly overused in the fish hobby. Used for bacterial infections, injuries, or preventative with signs of rips fins and such; you need to carefully consider if it is necessary. 1st off it needs to be administered in a hospital tank, no porous material. If...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[sawrip]

You inspired me to write this thread, check it out'

Assessing the use of antibiotics in lionfish/scorps

Just as with humans, antibiotics are greatly overused in the fish hobby. Used for bacterial infections, injuries, or preventative with signs of rips fins and such; you need to carefully consider if it is necessary. 1st off it needs to be administered in a hospital tank, no porous material. If...

www.reef2reef.com

Fantastic thread and incredibly helpful to myself. Antibiotics for hobbiest fish treatment is kind of banned in the UK so that's never really an option for myself.

The thread you wrote seems to suggest as long as water conditions are kept high along with a decent live diet that Lions are able to pull through most things.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply to myself, in particular @lion king, it's helped me see a clear pathway forward with things for now and the future with these brilliant fish.

 

[sawrip]

I've used live guppies in my feeding regimen for over 20 years, they have a similar protein and fat profile as their native diets and carry beneficial elements for the immune system and overall health due to being a complete food including live gut flora and bone.

Prazi pro treatment would be safe either way and not a bad idea. Make sure to dose to water volume and not tank size, carefully considering displacement. Prazi may initially effect feeding but usually only last a day or 2.

Can I also ask about your views on MinnFinn Marine complete treatment (Hydo Peroxide and Vinegar) which I was considering before posting in this forum. It claims a lot but I suspect Fluke Solve will be vastly superior and more targeted.

 

[lion king]

Can I also ask about your views on MinnFinn Marine complete treatment (Hydo Peroxide and Vinegar) which I was considering before posting in this forum. It claims a lot but I suspect Fluke Solve will be vastly superior and more targeted.

The problem is where you start from, if the lion is in good condition when you get them; because of most circumstances they do have a dismal survival rate. At least here is the US, they seem to be treated roughly, kept in poor conditions, fed sick and fresh dead fish along the way if fed at all. So after that, as with all fish; good water quality and a good diet. The diet for the Scorpaenidae may need live food for long term success.

As far the products you've mentioned, the Scorpaenidae process toxins, which meds are, differently; and many substances cause internal injury, most specifically to the liver. In the MinnFinn, I have used peroxide for algae control and vinegar alternatives for nitrate/phosphate control; separately and not sure of the comparable concentrations. I'm not really sure what this is going to accomplish. While the Fluke Solve does contain praziquental, which is the active ingredient in prazi pro; it does contain 2 other ingredients I'm not familiar with. One seems to be an alternative to metrodizole, which with praziquental is the active ingredients in general cure. The other ingredient is an insecticide. Sometimes alternative treatments are more toxic than the traditional ones. Surviving treatment doesn't mean much if internal damage occurs and death follows shortly afterwards. Even today I have people argue with me about copper treatment with lions, especially when they have one survive treatment, but I have yet to find one survive long afterwards.

 

[sawrip]

The problem is where you start from, if the lion is in good condition when you get them; because of most circumstances they do have a dismal survival rate. At least here is the US, they seem to be treated roughly, kept in poor conditions, fed sick and fresh dead fish along the way if fed at all. So after that, as with all fish; good water quality and a good diet. The diet for the Scorpaenidae may need live food for long term success.

As far the products you've mentioned, the Scorpaenidae process toxins, which meds are, differently; and many substances cause internal injury, most specifically to the liver. In the MinnFinn, I have used peroxide for algae control and vinegar alternatives for nitrate/phosphate control; separately and not sure of the comparable concentrations. I'm not really sure what this is going to accomplish. While the Fluke Solve does contain praziquental, which is the active ingredient in prazi pro; it does contain 2 other ingredients I'm not familiar with. One seems to be an alternative to metrodizole, which with praziquental is the active ingredients in general cure. The other ingredient is an insecticide. Sometimes alternative treatments are more toxic than the traditional ones. Surviving treatment doesn't mean much if internal damage occurs and death follows shortly afterwards. Even today I have people argue with me about copper treatment with lions, especially when they have one survive treatment, but I have yet to find one survive long afterwards.

Agreed, there is little point in initial survival if a few weeks later he passes away, the additional compounds worry me a little. I would also be worried for my Fu Manchu / Eel as well in terms of damage done.

The good news is that I've found a LFS who has quietly imported some stock of PraziPro, going to pick some up and treat using this Wednesday.

Thanks for the advice

 

[sawrip]

The problem is where you start from, if the lion is in good condition when you get them; because of most circumstances they do have a dismal survival rate. At least here is the US, they seem to be treated roughly, kept in poor conditions, fed sick and fresh dead fish along the way if fed at all. So after that, as with all fish; good water quality and a good diet. The diet for the Scorpaenidae may need live food for long term success.

As far the products you've mentioned, the Scorpaenidae process toxins, which meds are, differently; and many substances cause internal injury, most specifically to the liver. In the MinnFinn, I have used peroxide for algae control and vinegar alternatives for nitrate/phosphate control; separately and not sure of the comparable concentrations. I'm not really sure what this is going to accomplish. While the Fluke Solve does contain praziquental, which is the active ingredient in prazi pro; it does contain 2 other ingredients I'm not familiar with. One seems to be an alternative to metrodizole, which with praziquental is the active ingredients in general cure. The other ingredient is an insecticide. Sometimes alternative treatments are more toxic than the traditional ones. Surviving treatment doesn't mean much if internal damage occurs and death follows shortly afterwards. Even today I have people argue with me about copper treatment with lions, especially when they have one survive treatment, but I have yet to find one survive long afterwards.

So the latest update with this is his eye has cleared up and he's had a decent meal of ghost shrimps gut loaded, I suspect it was shedding or a mild bacterial infection. I have noticed one of his front antanana has been nipped partly off and is shorter than the other, I suspect this could have occurred when they were introduced into the tank and maybe the Eel or puffer decided to nip one of them. From the post you wrote my assumption is to just focus on diet and water quality for this nip and it should be fine. He looks much better today and went berserk when the shrimps were added into the tank a few minutes ago.