Live Sand Bio Diversification

[GARRIGA]

Having started salt when Live Rock was the rage and available and since learning the biggest benefit was likely the bio diversity of life including bacteria then why not try replicating (the bacteria component) by seeding a dry base rock setup with something like CaribSea Ocean Direct or perhaps Two Little Fishies Refugite or Eco Systems Miracle Mud outside the display in a reactor? Would be considerably cheaper and safer than sourcing live rock from other reefers or the few sources remaining such GOM or Haiti.

 

[Timfish]

I think Tampa Bay has tried something like that in association with Walt Smith Enterprises. Forest ROhwer pointed out in his video less than two percent of the microbial stuff in reef systems can be cultured and stuck in a bottle. There may have been some improvement on that but my guess is it's still a pretty small percentage. I'm under the impression the biology between sand and rock is quite different, in part I suspect because of the detritus and carbonate crystals will promote different microorganisms than the rock that is more resistant to dissolution and the endoliths that live in hte rock that likely don't live in sand. SPonges are a obviouly major difference between sand and rock and as they are essential recyclers I see mariclutured or wild live sand as complimenting mariclutured or wild live rock and not replacing it.

 

[cwerner]

Speaking anecdotally,

No, live sand does not in any way mimic the effects of live rock. I bought some live sand when I was starting my 50 gallon along with dry rock and it was nowhere near as stable until I bought a couple pieces of actual live reef rock. It did introduce some amphipods and copepods and nudibranchs into my system, but that's about it. Otherwise I probably would have gotten the same effect with some dry sand and a bottle of Dr. Tim's or other bacterial cultures.

 

[GARRIGA]

I think Tampa Bay has tried something like that in association with Walt Smith Enterprises. Forest ROhwer pointed out in his video less than two percent of the microbial stuff in reef systems can be cultured and stuck in a bottle. There may have been some improvement on that but my guess is it's still a pretty small percentage. I'm under the impression the biology between sand and rock is quite different, in part I suspect because of the detritus and carbonate crystals will promote different microorganisms than the rock that is more resistant to dissolution and the endoliths that live in hte rock that likely don't live in sand. SPonges are a obviouly major difference between sand and rock and as they are essential recyclers I see mariclutured or wild live sand as complimenting mariclutured or wild live rock and not replacing it.

Focusing on the 2% bottle effectiveness then perhaps at a minimum the live sand would bring 98% greater diversity to base rock setups where introducing live rock not an option. Does that make sense?

 

[GARRIGA]

Speaking anecdotally,

No, live sand does not in any way mimic the effects of live rock. I bought some live sand when I was starting my 50 gallon along with dry rock and it was nowhere near as stable until I bought a couple pieces of actual live reef rock. It did introduce some amphipods and copepods and nudibranchs into my system, but that's about it. Otherwise I probably would have gotten the same effect with some dry sand and a bottle of Dr. Tim's or other bacterial cultures.

What live sand did you buy and could it us e been long removed from the ocean and no longer viable? Key here is to provide more than bacteria in a bottle when live rock not an option.

Let me be clear. Going the live rock path is the goal but not practical for all. Plus some may have already started with base and inserting live might not be practical. Speaking of those not having a sump or room in the display

 

[cwerner]

What live sand did you buy and could it us e been long removed from the ocean and no longer viable? Key here is to provide more than bacteria in a bottle when live rock not an option.

Let me be clear. Going the live rock path is the goal but not practical for all. Plus some may have already started with base and inserting live might not be practical. Speaking of those not having a sump or room in the display

I used Arag-Alive if memory serves right, along with some Reef mud or Miracle Mud.

 

[Timfish]

Live sand would add a great deal more diversity to a system that just had bottled stuff added. Not sure how critical or accurate it is to say 98% more. Aquabiomics is another source that sometimes has maricultured rubble and sand that's tested for pathogens available.

Here's their article in case you haven't seen it.

Establishing a Healthy Microbiome in a New Aquarium Using Live Rock

Studying the effects of live rock in a newly established aquarium shows that high-quality live rock promotes the rapid establishment of an effective biological filter and a microbial community similar to those found in mature reef tanks.

www.reef2reef.com

 

[ReefGeezer]

Having started salt when Live Rock was the rage and available and since learning the biggest benefit was likely the bio diversity of life including bacteria then why not try replicating (the bacteria component) by seeding a dry base rock setup with something like CaribSea Ocean Direct or perhaps Two Little Fishies Refugite or Eco Systems Miracle Mud outside the display in a reactor? Would be considerably cheaper and safer than sourcing live rock from other reefers or the few sources remaining such GOM or Haiti.

I have some old school Garf Grunge and TBS live sand in my refugium, as well as rubble from TBS and KP Aquatics live rock but not so much for the "microbial" diversity the hobby is so hot about right now. I wanted the other stuff... micro stars, pods, sponges, et al. I think microbial diversity, while not a bad thing, is short lived. Eventually, one strain dominates each niche so it really doesn't matter how many you have to start.

The problem with "seeding" dry rock using about any method, including using small amounts of live sand and live rock, is the pervasiveness of bacteria. You are just not adding much more than is already present. For the same reason, other bacteria, good and bad, are present in much the same density. The dry rock offers a ton of substrate for all the competing bacteria to get established and set the stage for a prolonged competition for dominance. I think this competition is one of the causes of the "uglies". Live rock has established colonies of bacteria that have already won the competition and claimed most all of the substrate. If 100% live rock & live sand are used, IMO, it is harder for other bacteria to compete. BUT... live rock/sand may not actually contain a great "diversity" of microbes as the competition was completed in the ocean.

 

[GARRIGA]

Live sand would add a great deal more diversity to a system that just had bottled stuff added. Not sure how critical or accurate it is to say 98% more. Aquabiomics is another source that sometimes has maricultured rubble and sand that's tested for pathogens available.

Here's their article in case you haven't seen it.

Establishing a Healthy Microbiome in a New Aquarium Using Live Rock

Studying the effects of live rock in a newly established aquarium shows that high-quality live rock promotes the rapid establishment of an effective biological filter and a microbial community similar to those found in mature reef tanks.

www.reef2reef.com

Had not seen that report before. Thank you.

You bring up another option of throwing live rock rubble inside that reactor or sump if sand not the best vessel to deliver diversity. Although, the article mentions different colonies based on source it would appear that just having an established and diverse colony the key ingredient to successfully establishing a better biological system. Plus obtaining rubble would be easier and easier to hide within a display so that it may seed the dry base. Something that I'm seeking, although my test tank already at 18 months but I still seek more diversity.

 

[GARRIGA]

I used Arag-Alive if memory serves right, along with some Reef mud or Miracle Mud.

Have considered that the success with Miracle Mud perhaps in the diversity it brings. Seems no one knows what's in that mud although it does seem to deplete so perhaps minor and trace.