long term led par levels discussion

Mmmm.... now you are making me re-think what I said. The Ecotech drawing sure shows water. The Orphek images show out of water, and comparison to other fixtures, I assume also out of water. Guess the take-away is to confirm how manufacturers take their readings to compare apples to apples.

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That pic of the Orphek would not be a true reading of their capabilities.
 
Thanks for the reply kinda crazy if it’s the same.

I wonder if bulkreefsupply.com has ever ran longevity testing on leds or anyone for that matter with some graphed numbers of levels
Well, you can assume things from industry tests..
"replacement" is usually considered at 70% of initial..
Lumen%20VS%20time.png



http://blog.lisungroup.com/the-relationship-between-led-heat-dissipation-and-junction-temperature/

A LOT depends on the diodes (every day they are working on getting them more heat tolerant) and design..
Finding the true junction temp is no trivial matter though..
10% loss at 65C (149F) would give you a lifespan of 30,000 hours
8 years 10hr/day..

you would have to run ind. fixtures on full constantly for months (years?) to get any real idea.. except for poorly designed fixtures..
2.2
LED Sources
2.2.1 Typical Lumen Maintenance Because LED technology is still developing at a rapid pace
—and because the lifetime of LED packages is often tens of thousands of hours —it is usually not realistic to
measure the lumen output of LED products beyond a portion of their expected lives. Most publicly available data extends to 6,000 hours, with a
small percentage going beyond 10,000 hours.
While data in this form is often available for LED packages,it is rare to find any kind of long-term measured data for integrated LED lamps or LED luminaires.
https://www.pnnl.gov/main/publications/external/technical_reports/PNNL-22727.pdf
 
Another issue to consider is what percentage the lights are run at. I think it’s reasonable that a LED run at 50% would have less degradation, even if it’s a small amount, than one run at 100% especially in less expensive fixtures that might not have consistent temperature cooling abilities.


It does sound like the par loss of current fixtures is quite small.
 
Thanks for the reply kinda crazy if it’s the same.

Why do you think it's crazy? LEDs are semiconductors. They're not glass tubes coated with phosphors like T5s. They don't arc electricity in a gaseous vapor cloud like MH bulbs. LEDs are essentially computer chips that emit photons when electrons move across a P-N junction. I don't mean to say that LEDs don't decrease in intensity over time. I just don't know why it has to be "crazy" that the drop is very small.
 
Well I guess cause I have had several leds from my old AI Sols go out and that I had to replace along with led lights around the house.

So yes I find it crazy that the led light source has lost little intensity.

I would still like to see some hard data on this. Like pics with dates and par readings or something. I find it odd there hasn’t been longevity tests yet on these.
 
I had Ai Sols probably 7 years ago and the improvements made since then aren’t even relevant to the likes of Ai’s newest generation of lights . They were my first jump into led lighting and I progressed into the hydras and then the hydra 52 and then on to my radions. Each generation of led lighting I have used has been better than its predecessor. I think the technology hasn’t reached its full potential yet. Where as the light bulb technology is being phased out by government regulation. Look at the light bulb section at your stores and led lighting is taking over in bulb sales and in lighting fixtures. Is one better over the other is debatable but I think the led technology still hasn’t reached its full potential yet versus what you achieve for longevity over t5 or halide bulb technology. Them bulbs are what they are and well proven but I really don’t see any proven improvements being made on them as well.
 
Well I guess cause I have had several leds from my old AI Sols go out and that I had to replace along with led lights around the house.

So yes I find it crazy that the led light source has lost little intensity.

I would still like to see some hard data on this. Like pics with dates and par readings or something. I find it odd there hasn’t been longevity tests yet on these.

I agree, I would like to see some data on the longevity of the type of LEDs we use over aquariums.

However, I don't think it's fair to assume that all LEDs lose intensity in a significant way because you had a few LED pucks malfunction on your Sol. The AI Sol was one of the first commercially-viable LED fixtures available for reefs. A lot goes into an LED puck besides just the diodes. Perhaps the bad burnout has to do with a QC issue that AI had back in the day. It's hard to say. A number of issues, none of them having anything to do with the actual diodes themselves, could have caused the pucks to go bad. For what it's worth, I have a Sol I bought after they first came out over my QT tank. I've never had any of the pucks burn out. I probably have 5 years or so of day/night run time on the light.

If your point was that even LED lights can break and that we should take repair costs into account when we buy, that's a fair point. I don't think it's fair to assume LEDs lose intensity because some parts of your LED light broke. LEDs (and LED assemblies) failing prematurely and LEDs losing intensity naturally over their working lifetime are not in any way related.
 
No my assumption comes from when I had a used hydra 26 compared to a new hydra 26 these were non hd. It was clear that the new one at the same percentages was brighter. I didn’t have access to a par meter then to confirm but visually it was apperant that the new one was brighter.

I don’t want anyone to get the idea that I’m against leds I enjoy my led/T5 light a lot. I know leds can grow Corals by themselves I just personally like T5s added in.

I’m mainly wanting to see hard data of these not loosing par as some have said in the thread or just general data over several years.

Another thing I think about is if something goes wrong with my t5 I can easily go up to my local Lowe’s, Home Depot, or menards and get parts but with LEDs the parts and fixtures just all together get phased out over time. So the leds may last 50000hrs but the parts available won’t be around nearly that long to keep the fixtures going if something was to happen.
 
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When comparing your used 26 to your new one there are several things to consider. The lenses on the used one could be dirty plus over time the led damages the lenses . Second the the previous owner keep the fans clean, run it hot . Run everything maxed out and so on . That could be one reason in the difference your seeing . I just got Done taking my MH of my tank and replacing them with hydra HD . I do plan on keeping a par reading log to see what happens. If you want a good inexpensive par meter look at the seneye reef meter BRS has them . I like mine and it has been with in two point of my Apogee and I can live with that .
 
I measure PAR 24/7

I have found that in my tank the recommendation of 250 to 350 ABSOLUTELY does not apply using my LEDs and my PMK which is based on an apogee.

My LEDs have to be run no higher than about 50% or they burn corals.

At those settings, my PMK only detects around 230 PAR during peak hours which is only 4 hours a day.

If i go any higher, the montis burn (killed one small frag), polys burn and die next followed by the zoas.

Oddly, the torches and hammers tolerate it...for a bit. The blue tort and an assortment of yellow, purple, green and red sps do fine up to just over 300 par for 4 hours a day, even up to 350-400 par (12k at 75%) but it seems to reduce growth when i over light them.

What really burns them is the 10k to 14k settings where the whites are up. Any thing above 40% and you are asking for trouble.

I only run that (12k) up in 8 minute increments about once an hour 6 or 7 times a day.

You can do 70% for 8 hours or so on 18k, 20k, all blue and my custom setting with all the blues at 100%, the whites at 19% and red and green 4 to 8% which is what runs the vast majority of the day.

Since heat is what degrades the LEDs, i suspect the power supply and main boards die LONG before the diodes. The cooling fans never come on and there is so much head room left that i suspect 10 to 15 years before id see 80% power levels required to hit 280par.

They are 2 years old and so far, not a single diode has failed.

Now the kessils are a different story. The older units run hot and are prone to fail at levels above 80% after a few years. The WE models run much much cooler but i suspect you might have a bit more drop in them. I could see hitting 100% power to maintain par at around the 7 or 8 year point. Still not bad considering you can get them for $325 if you know how to shop.

The setup is a 6ft long 225g running 3x hydra 52s and 4x Kessil A360ws.

Water is CRYSTAL clear as i run ozone, GAC and just installed a 30 inch, 50watt high output UV sterilizer.

Two days a week i don't even turn on hydras....kessils only. That keeps the color sharp and i find it gives the corals deep color.

Tank is only two years old and still maturing. Montis are growing fast as are the birds nest. Torts and other SPS have visible but steady slow growth and excellent color. New heads all over duncans and torches. Hammers stay about the same, zoas, polys and gsp grow almost out of control and acans and meat corals like scoli waste away and die.

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Why do you think it's crazy? LEDs are semiconductors. They're not glass tubes coated with phosphors like T5s. They don't arc electricity in a gaseous vapor cloud like MH bulbs. LEDs are essentially computer chips that emit photons when electrons move across a P-N junction. I don't mean to say that LEDs don't decrease in intensity over time. I just don't know why it has to be "crazy" that the drop is very small.

+1

The nature of LED's is that the wavelength of light from a specific LED is "fixed" based on what it is doped with. Specific atoms prescribe a definite electron orbital drop and thus a specific light wavelength. So, spectrally speaking, LED's should not lose PAR due to spectrum shift. That said, they are made of materials that could experience changes in resistance and thus suffer from power / emission loss. So, PAR could drop due to that. For those running LED's at less than 100% power, we have some room to make up for any PAR loss by increasing the power.

From what I've read, LED's tend to suddenly 'burn out' instead of fading quietly into the darkness. OR, the power supplies die. Actually, if I'm honest, the most likely demise of LED systems is an owner that wants an upgrade and ditches an otherwise working unit for a "better one".
 
Two year old hydra 52s, this has grown by 25% in 3 months...and is now growing AWAY from the light

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Why do you think it's crazy? LEDs are semiconductors. They're not glass tubes coated with phosphors like T5s. They don't arc electricity in a gaseous vapor cloud like MH bulbs. LEDs are essentially computer chips that emit photons when electrons move across a P-N junction. I don't mean to say that LEDs don't decrease in intensity over time. I just don't know why it has to be "crazy" that the drop is very small.


Came here to post this.
 

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