Long term results using LED lights?????

marinworld

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Anyone visiting MACNA this year couldn't help but notice the total domination by LED lighting. It certainly was breath taking. For showing off colors it can't be denied. Looks like the race is on with the manufacturers to produce them.

This is all fine, however, I can't help but wonder about the long term results. Will they be more or less beneficial to the growth of our reef systems. Are there any studies detailing this?

I'm not trying to be negative, just curious. Perhaps someone can point to some good long term info.
 
There are a couple of thread on this very subject with progresion pics and some info. They definitely work long term. Try doing a search, I'd post some links for you but I don't know how from my phone.
 
From my exp. Every thing is there but the color... The color is fake it's almost as if the LEDs reflect off the corals showing you amazing colors then you swap thy coral to another tAnk and really see what's going on...:( maybe with the new rgb series this will change.... Hope so anyways...
 
I've had great luck on my tank with a mixture of LED & T5 over the past year. I moved a few frags from the DT to my frag tank which is lit solely by T5 and colors were still great, but that may be due to the T5 supplementation on the display. LEDs have a narrow spectral range, which some argue are not ideal for color and growth, but providing a few T5s into the mix would help fill in the gaps. Then you can have best of both worlds... the "pop" from the LEDs along with the broad spectrum of the T5s. My signature has my build thread which is loaded with pics and here's an old thread I started on progression under my LEDs.

https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/re...h-progression-under-reef-filtration-leds.html
 
As mentioned, there have been problems with providing the proper spectrum of wavelengths in the whites of LED's, (poor coral color) but my understanding and experience is that many LED fixture manufacturers and hobbyists have worked this out or are working this out. I have a newer custom fixture that my corals seem to love and am getting decent color and growth, even when I look at the frags under halides or T5's, which as mentioned, has not always been the case. I am not ready to give up the halides just yet, but things seem to be moving in that direction.
 
The fact is not all LEDs are built the same. Even the Cree LEDs are marked with special BIN numbers to identify the LEDs that emit the best wavelenghts for reef environment. The truth is there are only a few manufacturers that use only the proper diodes that emit the correct wavelengths .. :wink:
 
The fact is not all LEDs are built the same. Even the Cree LEDs are marked with special BIN numbers to identify the LEDs that emit the best wavelenghts for reef environment. The truth is there are only a few manufacturers that use only the proper diodes that emit the correct wavelengths .. :wink:

Really....what bin numbers would those be and where would they be marked?
 
Really....what bin numbers would those be and where would they be marked?
Here is a nice article I found with some excellent info: :wink:
Many do not seem to understand that not all emitters are equal even with the open source Cree-XR-E emitters, commonly sold for other applications; these are only as good as their correct wavelength output (Kelvin Temperature/Nanometers). One cannot compare a first generation CREE XR-E or similar emitter from a few years back to the newest XR-E of today anymore than you can compare first generation iPhone to the latest iPhone (same name, improved technology).
Based on email I get (some very insulting too), forums I have read, & especially YouTube videos (for DIY LED Aquarium Lights) many persons seem to make this very incorrect assumption. This has resulted in a plethora of non reef capable LED lights flooding the market, some claiming to use CREE daylight emitters while in reality these are not even close to the same currently patented emitters used by high end LED lights!
I do not know whether to laugh or cry when I read or watch YouTube videos where someone brags how cheaply that they put together a DIY LED Fixture, when in reality this is the same as bragging about making your own PC Computer using a circa 2000 Intel processor and attempting to compare it to a computer using the latest Intel processor!

Another example are the exclusive Cree Emitter bins used by Tropic Marine Center AquaRay/AquaBeam should not be confused with Cree emitters sold for other lighting applications, as these do not produce the correct Kelvin/Nanometers of Light required for delicate marine reef and freshwater inhabitants and plants. One example is the Daylight Cree XR-E from several generations back that are available to the general public, Chinese manufacturers, and used by manufacturers such as E.Shine or others and sold under USA brand names (such as Marineland). This older generation emitter ranges from 6000 to 9000K and has much more of the green/yellow bands and much less of the near infrared bands of light. Another example is the blue emitter bin used by TMC produces a rather exact 465nm - 485nm (which as per our PAR section of this article is the primary UVA wavelength for optimum PAR).
Worse would be the cheaper no name emitters used by manufacturers such as BaiSheng & others and sold under a plehtora of other names for so-called aquarium use; these use daylight emitters that can vary from 2000K to 6500K and are in reality totally useless for aquarium use other than just plain light!

Think about why a CFL 10,000K daylight is so much different and more expensive than a common household CFL sold in hardware stores, or the many decorative LED aquarium lights or even those for home or flashlight use; try using one of these to grow your delicate coral or plants (the answer is they will not). Sadly shortly before writing this update, I got a obscene email about why should he pay for a Cree emitter in a high end aquarium light such as the Aqua Ray or similar, when he could by these for much less money for other application. This shows the unfortunate lack of understanding of what is important in aquarium lighting, whether LED or other lights (hopefully this is understood better for any reader here up to this point in the article). This is the reason most earlier LED aquarium lights were not adequate for supporting life properly until recently.

Another misunderstanding about LED emitters is targeting the responsive wavelength, while exact coral responsiveness wavelengths is unknown, much is known in a more broader sense (and even more knowledge is growing such as the "blue band" of coral responsiveness). As an example we do know that much of the yellow and green bands are useless. The unfortunate aspect of this misunderstanding is that these same misunderstandings do not seem to be applied to Metal Halides to which part of their success has been the targeting of responsive wavelengths rather than the "shotgun" approach of lighting in the past.

As well many other LED lights now on the market such as the Rio Mini Sun, Marineland Double Bright, or "Ecoxotic Stunner" are only for adding highlights and supplemental lighting, not as a primary lighting source. This also is the case for the many submersible LED lights that are also available in stores or the internet.

The graph on the left shows the daylight emitter output of the popular Marineland Double Bright 1 Watt 8000K emitter (please click on the picture to enlarge). This graph is very clear that there is none of the essential near infrared spikes required for PAR/PUR, only blue and mostly wasted green/yellow visible light, this is what fools many who measure lights visually as the Double Bright will look bright to the human eye, but in reality is only a highlighting light!

This is similar to the older (now out of date) TMC LED lights from a a few years back, however the current TMC LEDs (such as the Marine White) now use the most current CRee emitter bins (with exclusive rights to these patents as noted earlier). The bottom line is the results of top notch emitters such as the patented Cree emitters speak for themselves by professional Reef Aquarium Maintenance companies, Quality Marine and others.

There is a reason many cheapie knock offs utilize 100 plus emitters (often 1 watt each), these older technology LEDs use a shotgun approach to achieving aquarium lighting (similar in principle to my use of a dozen low end T12 fluorescent light tubes 30 years ago to acheive adequate lighting).
For those interested in the best in LED technology, the TMC AquaRay as well as the Orphek and a few other truly high end LEDs are your best choices.

Please note for those who choose to dig up old graphs and diagrams from TMCs website (which is not at all current), I already have provided the most current PAR readings, graphs, etc. and you can either accept or reject this information and the many aquarium keeping professionals that are using or have tested the LEDs I have spoken of.
Comparing a TMC "Marine White" or "Full Spectrum" (which is not even sold any more) from a few years back to a latest CRee emitter bin "Marine White" is like comparing a cell phone circa 2000 to an iPhone circa 2011!

Use of LED to prevent Red Slime
Another positive attribute of LED Aquarium lights as per s recent study (August of 2009) is that LED used in marine aquariums that suffer with Marine Red Slime Algae (Cyanobacteria) can immediately eradicate Red Slime algae when used in a full spectrum lighting configuration. These "immediate" results were just two weeks all the while other lighting configurations (such as switching to 6400 K CFL from 10,000K CFL) show slight improvement, the LED lights showed much more dramatic results. I do not know (as of this update) the exact reasons, but my suspicions is that CFL (including VHO & SHO) still produce more of the yellow/green nanometer range of light which encourages Cyanobacteria and discourages more discourage competing green algae.
 
Based on my own personal experience color is not there for many LED brands. In fact I have not seen any that match Orphek PR-156's. They lack the bells and whistles but make up for it in PAR & Color.

I can't comment on the long term because I have only had them for a little while.
 
I have had one of the evolution fixtures over a 29 gal tank for about a year now. has a purple stag and a Hawkins blue enchinata in it along with a rbta and a ton of zoas and mushrooms. of course zoas and mushrooms grow under the light fixture, but for the past year the rbta has never looked better (it's legit rainbow and it was solely a rbta before.) The purple stag has been growing, but the whole base was getting attacked by kenya trees so it's hard to tell with this coral, The hawkins is by far the better sps grower. It went from a tiny 1/2" piece to almost the size of a baseball in the past year. I believe it would have grown better, but I have been majorly neglecting this tank. I cannot remember the last time I did a water change. I have not topped off in a while and my salinity rose to 1.031 aka i'm working on slowly bringing that back down.

what I'm getting at...I am fully confident that LED's will grow SPS. I have not moved any of these to another tank, so I cannot comment on them not looking the same under other lights...but they look awesome under LED's.



oh did I mention...for the first 10 months I was ONLY USING BLUE LED'S...NO WHITE!!! I just recently picked up a second timer to start turning the whites on for about 2 hours per day. I would imagine that my growth should be better now that I'm using the whites also!
 
From my exp. Every thing is there but the color... The color is fake it's almost as if the LEDs reflect off the corals showing you amazing colors then you swap thy coral to another tAnk and really see what's going on...:( maybe with the new rgb series this will change.... Hope so anyways...



Well back from vacation.

Anyway that is the key.. Red is very important to the coloration of coral. We saw this with t-5 which are also narrow spectrum compared to halides. When t-5 first hit the market coral lost their color. We now have red bulbs or purple which have more of a peak in red. See Dana Riddles articles in advanced aquarist on coral colorations.

Par is one thing and contributes to growth but not necessarily actual pigment colorization.. It can contribute to coloration too just to make clear.


Different color (spectrum) light can have a dramatic affect on coral coloration and uv can play a role. We worry about coloration mainly in sps and they mainly come from shallow water where they are subject to all spectrums from the sun and that is what they are used to. Most deep water corals are used to mainly blue lighting. Corals can change their pigmentation to filter in or out different light and it can move proteins around thus changing the color of the coral.

I know adding lots of blue to the spectrum make a coral fluoresce nicely but really does little for the actual color of the coral and that is what you are seeing.


Basically I think we will start to see led fixtures with red added in and also some other colors. Problem is led is so directional that it will look splotchy.

We focus too much on par. A good t-5, halide and led will provide enough par. Par is not a issue anymore.

Dave Polzin
 
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I have had leds for 2 years. Color and growth are there. The problem (or not) is the sps color morph. I can buy them as one color but they will not stay that color. So I had a green digitata that has turned light blue. A neon green dw acro that turned pink. It also takes months for sps to color up and acclimate (in my system). But I think this will be worked out soon. Like my lfs has those exotica cannon 100w pendants with a red,green, blue( I think) light bar that flashes betwwen the three colors.
 
I've had only LEDs over my frag tank for about six months now and I have absolutely no complaints. Everything is coloring up nicely and as it should. I got my LEDs from bill at reefled so I know that I got the correct bin numbers. What works for one person doesn't necessarily work for the other, there are just too many variables. I know I putting LEDs over my display because they've worked for me.
 
Right...so what are the supposed bins and where are they marked?

Reality is Cree is not making custom binned LEDs for AquaRay or anybody else...they are a publicly traded company with a market cap of $3.5B and are not likely to be worried about our little niche market. I've been to that site of Aquaray and they have alot of nice information but don't believe for one second that they have the market cornered with Cree making custom binned LEDs for them. Wavelength is wavelength period..and LEDs are extremely narrow banded. Binning deals with brightness in luminous flux or radiant flux for Royal Blue, color temp in chromacity, and by default efficiency. Cree does not make a 14000k emitter...at least not that I can find in the data sheets nor any place else.

It is very true all LEDs are not created equal but siting XREs which is old technology is silly. He's going after the chinese made 'Cree fixtures' which I have no doubt are using XREs else the price would not be so low. I agree those using 119 1W LEDs are not very good...at least not for me. However, XREs work fine. They are not as efficient and not as bright as XPGs and XPEs but they emit the same wavelength with perhaps not the same punch....but you can get the same result.

No, our problem with using LEDs is typically color temp...ie way too much white, and then way too much PAR. I have recently introduced a few greens and reds and I run 2 royal blues to one cool white.... and I have to say those that suggest they do nothing are simply regurgitating what is common knowledge regarding what spectrums get stripped off by what depth of water in the ocean and try to translate it to our aquarium. I am finding better color and growth. I won't suggest its them alone but rather likely the combined effect of the array I have providing the complex color temp and wavelengths in my tank. I have alot of time, money, and corals invested in that statement and my rant. Apologies folks :)

Here is a nice article I found with some excellent info: :wink:
Many do not seem to understand that not all emitters are equal even with the open source Cree-XR-E emitters, commonly sold for other applications; these are only as good as their correct wavelength output (Kelvin Temperature/Nanometers). One cannot compare a first generation CREE XR-E or similar emitter from a few years back to the newest XR-E of today anymore than you can compare first generation iPhone to the latest iPhone (same name, improved technology).
Based on email I get (some very insulting too), forums I have read, & especially YouTube videos (for DIY LED Aquarium Lights) many persons seem to make this very incorrect assumption. This has resulted in a plethora of non reef capable LED lights flooding the market, some claiming to use CREE daylight emitters while in reality these are not even close to the same currently patented emitters used by high end LED lights!
I do not know whether to laugh or cry when I read or watch YouTube videos where someone brags how cheaply that they put together a DIY LED Fixture, when in reality this is the same as bragging about making your own PC Computer using a circa 2000 Intel processor and attempting to compare it to a computer using the latest Intel processor!

Another example are the exclusive Cree Emitter bins used by Tropic Marine Center AquaRay/AquaBeam should not be confused with Cree emitters sold for other lighting applications, as these do not produce the correct Kelvin/Nanometers of Light required for delicate marine reef and freshwater inhabitants and plants. One example is the Daylight Cree XR-E from several generations back that are available to the general public, Chinese manufacturers, and used by manufacturers such as E.Shine or others and sold under USA brand names (such as Marineland). This older generation emitter ranges from 6000 to 9000K and has much more of the green/yellow bands and much less of the near infrared bands of light. Another example is the blue emitter bin used by TMC produces a rather exact 465nm - 485nm (which as per our PAR section of this article is the primary UVA wavelength for optimum PAR).
Worse would be the cheaper no name emitters used by manufacturers such as BaiSheng & others and sold under a plehtora of other names for so-called aquarium use; these use daylight emitters that can vary from 2000K to 6500K and are in reality totally useless for aquarium use other than just plain light!

Think about why a CFL 10,000K daylight is so much different and more expensive than a common household CFL sold in hardware stores, or the many decorative LED aquarium lights or even those for home or flashlight use; try using one of these to grow your delicate coral or plants (the answer is they will not). Sadly shortly before writing this update, I got a obscene email about why should he pay for a Cree emitter in a high end aquarium light such as the Aqua Ray or similar, when he could by these for much less money for other application. This shows the unfortunate lack of understanding of what is important in aquarium lighting, whether LED or other lights (hopefully this is understood better for any reader here up to this point in the article). This is the reason most earlier LED aquarium lights were not adequate for supporting life properly until recently.

Another misunderstanding about LED emitters is targeting the responsive wavelength, while exact coral responsiveness wavelengths is unknown, much is known in a more broader sense (and even more knowledge is growing such as the "blue band" of coral responsiveness). As an example we do know that much of the yellow and green bands are useless. The unfortunate aspect of this misunderstanding is that these same misunderstandings do not seem to be applied to Metal Halides to which part of their success has been the targeting of responsive wavelengths rather than the "shotgun" approach of lighting in the past.

As well many other LED lights now on the market such as the Rio Mini Sun, Marineland Double Bright, or "Ecoxotic Stunner" are only for adding highlights and supplemental lighting, not as a primary lighting source. This also is the case for the many submersible LED lights that are also available in stores or the internet.

The graph on the left shows the daylight emitter output of the popular Marineland Double Bright 1 Watt 8000K emitter (please click on the picture to enlarge). This graph is very clear that there is none of the essential near infrared spikes required for PAR/PUR, only blue and mostly wasted green/yellow visible light, this is what fools many who measure lights visually as the Double Bright will look bright to the human eye, but in reality is only a highlighting light!

This is similar to the older (now out of date) TMC LED lights from a a few years back, however the current TMC LEDs (such as the Marine White) now use the most current CRee emitter bins (with exclusive rights to these patents as noted earlier). The bottom line is the results of top notch emitters such as the patented Cree emitters speak for themselves by professional Reef Aquarium Maintenance companies, Quality Marine and others.

There is a reason many cheapie knock offs utilize 100 plus emitters (often 1 watt each), these older technology LEDs use a shotgun approach to achieving aquarium lighting (similar in principle to my use of a dozen low end T12 fluorescent light tubes 30 years ago to acheive adequate lighting).
For those interested in the best in LED technology, the TMC AquaRay as well as the Orphek and a few other truly high end LEDs are your best choices.

Please note for those who choose to dig up old graphs and diagrams from TMCs website (which is not at all current), I already have provided the most current PAR readings, graphs, etc. and you can either accept or reject this information and the many aquarium keeping professionals that are using or have tested the LEDs I have spoken of.
Comparing a TMC "Marine White" or "Full Spectrum" (which is not even sold any more) from a few years back to a latest CRee emitter bin "Marine White" is like comparing a cell phone circa 2000 to an iPhone circa 2011!

Use of LED to prevent Red Slime
Another positive attribute of LED Aquarium lights as per s recent study (August of 2009) is that LED used in marine aquariums that suffer with Marine Red Slime Algae (Cyanobacteria) can immediately eradicate Red Slime algae when used in a full spectrum lighting configuration. These "immediate" results were just two weeks all the while other lighting configurations (such as switching to 6400 K CFL from 10,000K CFL) show slight improvement, the LED lights showed much more dramatic results. I do not know (as of this update) the exact reasons, but my suspicions is that CFL (including VHO & SHO) still produce more of the yellow/green nanometer range of light which encourages Cyanobacteria and discourages more discourage competing green algae.
 
Ever get an answer?

Right...so what are the supposed bins and where are they marked?

Reality is Cree is not making custom binned LEDs for AquaRay or anybody else...they are a publicly traded company with a market cap of $3.5B and are not likely to be worried about our little niche market. I've been to that site of Aquaray and they have alot of nice information but don't believe for one second that they have the market cornered with Cree making custom binned LEDs for them. Wavelength is wavelength period..and LEDs are extremely narrow banded. Binning deals with brightness in luminous flux or radiant flux for Royal Blue, color temp in chromacity, and by default efficiency. Cree does not make a 14000k emitter...at least not that I can find in the data sheets nor any place else.

It is very true all LEDs are not created equal but siting XREs which is old technology is silly. He's going after the chinese made 'Cree fixtures' which I have no doubt are using XREs else the price would not be so low. I agree those using 119 1W LEDs are not very good...at least not for me. However, XREs work fine. They are not as efficient and not as bright as XPGs and XPEs but they emit the same wavelength with perhaps not the same punch....but you can get the same result.

No, our problem with using LEDs is typically color temp...ie way too much white, and then way too much PAR. I have recently introduced a few greens and reds and I run 2 royal blues to one cool white.... and I have to say those that suggest they do nothing are simply regurgitating what is common knowledge regarding what spectrums get stripped off by what depth of water in the ocean and try to translate it to our aquarium. I am finding better color and growth. I won't suggest its them alone but rather likely the combined effect of the array I have providing the complex color temp and wavelengths in my tank. I have alot of time, money, and corals invested in that statement and my rant. Apologies folks :)

I joined this forum just to get an answer. It is clearly BS to claim that you get a magical and special LED from Cree that they won't sell to anyone else. Why would they even do that? I seriously doubt a small lighting company for aquariums had the technical expertise to help the largest power LED manufacturer in the world. I am guessing that they are just using a little bit more quality control and perhaps a proprietary "blend". If anyone does figure out the binning that they are using...please let me know
 

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