Looking for individual help/advice cycling new setup

JasonCrimmel · Sep 6, 2020

Hi all. I'm looking for some more 1on1 help on cycling a new setup. I have been doing my research for months. I feel like I have watched every YouTube video and read everything out there, but I think it's time for me to start talking to some experts rather than watching the next BRS video.

So, I started my setup on Sep. 3, 2020. Specs below:

Setup

75 gallon tank
60 gallons I.O. Reef Crystal Saltwater
100lbs of Carib Sea Arag-Alive Fiji Pink Sand
45lbs of dry shelf flat base rock as a foundation for future live rock
(Will be adding live aquacultured reef rock from SaltyBottomReefCompany in the future)
500w heater with controller
Gyre cross flow wave pump
24w internal UV light
Current USA Orbit Marine LED bar w/ controller
Marineland Penguin 350 bio-wheel 350 gph (with extra bag of activated charcoal and Seachem Cuorisorb... crappy 9-1 test strips showed a tiny change on copper, but I think it the test strips are junk. Just in case I put a bag of Cuorisorb in the filter)
(Will be setting up a sump system soon)
Auto top-off system

Testing

API Master Saltwater Test Kit
9 in 1 test strips (seems like complete junk)
Digital PH Pen Meter
Seachem Ammonia Alert card

I understand the importance of the Ammonia / Nitrate cycle, but I feel like I could use some help. I am trying to start my initial cycle, At first (2 days ago) I started with fish food, but today decided to switch over to dropping pure ammonia. My Seachem Alert badge is starting to read "Alert" at .05 ppm (I understand this is free ammonia only) and my API test kit reads ~.35ppm (total ammonia). API testing also shows Nitrite at 0, and Nitrate at ~10ppm.

Tank lights and UV are off. (Lights on for the picture only) Filter and Wave pump are on.

QUESTIONS
-Why am I seeing Nitrate after the tank has been up for only 3 days?
-How high do I need to get the total Ammonia on the API kit to be sure things start correctly (5ppm???)
-Should getting the tank to the Ammonia level above be a gradual process of a few drops per day OR should I dose, test, and dose all at once until I reach 5ppm on the API test?
-Does this sound like it's on track?
-Any thought or suggestions?

Thanks!

MaxxuM · Sep 6, 2020

Welcome to R2R!

I'll try to help if I can with some of your questions.

I always try to recommend a "program" for new reefers. Something that has rules, explains those rules, and gets you involved in the process. I'm testing the Red Sea Mature Starter Kit, but there are others.

Why are you seeing nitrates? Different bacteria grow at different rates is the simplest answer. Water temperature also plays a role (higher means faster cycling).

How high does ammonia need to be? As far as I know it just has to get to 0.5-1ppm, but it depends on what you're using to 'seed' the tank. Also, ammonia will fluctuate depending on how fast whatever you put in the tank breaks down. If you're using food it could take days to completely dissolve. It could prolong the whole process really. So, you are probably going to see a second spike in another few days to a week as the food breaks down. Or, you may not. It depends on how robust your system is. In your case, I'd increase your aquarium temperature to 83F to help speed the process.

Adding more ammonia is highly dependent on experience and goals. I'd say no in your case. You can ask people with a better grasp of the organic chemistry what you should dose. Personally, it seems like you already have a lot of organics in your tank. Perhaps I'd throw a bottle of bacteria in the system if you want to speed things up.

I think you're off to an OK start. It's hard to say anything because we don't know how much nutrients are now in your system. Personally, I'd get something like SeaChem Stability or BIO-Spira and dose per their instructions and raise the tank temperature to move things along more quickly (say days instead of weeks). I'd also start to get to know your reef chemistry be testing and adjusting alkalinity, calcium and magnesium while there are not animals in the tank that would be hurt if you made a mistake. If you're at 7 dKH alk I'd practice getting to 8 for example over a period of a few hours. Your water volume isn't actually 75 gallons either. It's more likely to be closer to 68-70 depending on how much sand you have in there.

ScubaFish802 · Sep 6, 2020

Q: Why am I seeing Nitrate after the tank has been up for only 3 days?
You did say you started with live sand (Caribsea Fiji Pink) as well as what was said above. The sand should have some of the beneficial bacteria in it already

Q: How high do I need to get the total Ammonia on the API kit to be sure things start correctly (5ppm???)
Check out these instructions for some tips on ammonia levels and dosing

otherwise it sounds like you have a good start! Welcome

Pistondog · Sep 6, 2020

500 watts seems like a lot for 75 g.
Don't know if it makes that much difference.

JasonCrimmel · Sep 6, 2020

MaxxuM said:
Welcome to R2R!

I'll try to help if I can with some of your questions.

I always try to recommend a "program" for new reefers. Something that has rules, explains those rules, and gets you involved in the process. I'm testing the Red Sea Mature Starter Kit, but there are others.

Why are you seeing nitrates? Different bacteria grow at different rates is the simplest answer. Water temperature also plays a role (higher means faster cycling).

How high does ammonia need to be? As far as I know it just has to get to 0.5-1ppm, but it depends on what you're using to 'seed' the tank. Also, ammonia will fluctuate depending on how fast whatever you put in the tank breaks down. If you're using food it could take days to completely dissolve. It could prolong the whole process really. So, you are probably going to see a second spike in another few days to a week as the food breaks down. Or, you may not. It depends on how robust your system is. In your case, I'd increase your aquarium temperature to 83F to help speed the process.

Adding more ammonia is highly dependent on experience and goals. I'd say no in your case. You can ask people with a better grasp of the organic chemistry what you should dose. Personally, it seems like you already have a lot of organics in your tank. Perhaps I'd throw a bottle of bacteria in the system if you want to speed things up.

I think you're off to an OK start. It's hard to say anything because we don't know how much nutrients are now in your system. Personally, I'd get something like SeaChem Stability or BIO-Spira and dose per their instructions and raise the tank temperature to move things along more quickly (say days instead of weeks). I'd also start to get to know your reef chemistry be testing and adjusting alkalinity, calcium and magnesium while there are not animals in the tank that would be hurt if you made a mistake. If you're at 7 dKH alk I'd practice getting to 8 for example over a period of a few hours. Your water volume isn't actually 75 gallons either. It's more likely to be closer to 68-70 depending on how much sand you have in there.

Thank you. I was really confused about seeing nitrates because every model I've seen says I shouldn't see that until after I see the jump in nitrite, but that makes sense I could be seeing them due to the live sand. I guess those models are based on starting with regular sand.

I have the temp controller set at 82 and I'm holding steady between 81.7 and 82. I thought that was on the warm side, but do you have a suggestion otherwise on temp?

I'll look into the SeaChem Stability, and I like the idea of practicing with the Cal. Mag. and Alk.

Thank you for the detailed response!

JasonCrimmel · Sep 6, 2020

802ScubaFish said:
Q: Why am I seeing Nitrate after the tank has been up for only 3 days?
You did say you started with live sand (Caribsea Fiji Pink) as well as what was said above. The sand should have some of the beneficial bacteria in it already

Q: How high do I need to get the total Ammonia on the API kit to be sure things start correctly (5ppm???)
Check out these instructions for some tips on ammonia levels and dosing

otherwise it sounds like you have a good start! Welcome

I didn't expect to see nitrates yet, but that make sense. Thanks, for the link. I haven't read that article yet.

Appreciate your help!

Idoc · Sep 6, 2020

Only dose your ammonia to 2ppm and wait for it to clear to zero before adding more. When you can put in 2ppm and your system can take it to zero in 24hrs, then you're cycled.

I think you are well prepared and decibel on the right path.

Don't worry about the nitrates... you'll take those at the end with a big water change. But probably there due to testing error or your live sand has some bacteria helping the cycle along.

JasonCrimmel · Sep 6, 2020

Pistondog said:
500 watts seems like a lot for 75 g.
Don't know if it makes that much difference.

It is definitely on the high side for my tank size, but doing a great job so far. I've been able to hold the temp within .3 degrees for the last 3 days since getting it to 82. I do have a smaller 100w, but designated it as my salt mix heater for a 32 gallon trash can.

LeftyReefer · Sep 7, 2020

Welcome!

Don't over-do the ammonia. It doesn't take much to kick things off...
And the more you add during the cycle, the higher your nitrates will be in the end.

I also wouldn't bother testing for nitrates until your nitrites rise and fall back to zero.
Nitrates can be lowered with water changes so no big worries either way.

You might also want to look at eventually getting a protein skimmer too.

Good luck!

JasonCrimmel · Sep 7, 2020

Idoc said:
Only dose your ammonia to 2ppm and wait for it to clear to zero before adding more. When you can put in 2ppm and your system can take it to zero in 24hrs, then you're cycled.

I think you are well prepared and decibel on the right path.

Don't worry about the nitrates... you'll take those at the end with a big water change. But probably there due to testing error or your live sand has some bacteria helping the cycle along.

Great guidance. Thanks for the guideline. Can very high nitrates stall the cycle?

JasonCrimmel · Sep 7, 2020

LeftyReefer said:
Welcome!

Don't over-do the ammonia. It doesn't take much to kick things off...
And the more you add during the cycle, the higher your nitrates will be in the end.

I also wouldn't bother testing for nitrates until your nitrites rise and fall back to zero.
Nitrates can be lowered with water changes so no big worries either way.

You might also want to look at eventually getting a protein skimmer too.

Good luck!

Thanks, I'm designing a sump now that will have room for a skimmer down the road. Will high nitrates during the cycle cause it to stall out at any point?

DaddyFish · Sep 7, 2020

JasonCrimmel said:
Thanks, I'm designing a sump now that will have room for a skimmer down the road. Will high nitrates during the cycle cause it to stall out at any point?

Nitrates are the "end product" of the nitrogen cycle. High nitrates over an extended period will stress your fish, but not stall the basic cycle. I didn't catch what your water source is (assume you are using RO/DI)? If not, you could be importing Nitrates from your source water right off the bat.

I second the recommendation for Seachem Stability. Follow the directions over the recommended 7-day dosing period and test every 1-2 days for Nitrite. Within 7-10-days you should see Nitrite rise, then fall, followed by a significant increase in Nitrate. That's when you know you are cycling.

Be sure to continue feeding the tank with something for Ammonia (fish, fish food, ammonia...) or the system will die out. You must feed the front-end of the nitrogen cycle to keep it alive.

Idoc · Sep 7, 2020

JasonCrimmel said:
Great guidance. Thanks for the guideline. Can very high nitrates stall the cycle?

No, but supposedly high ammonia around 5ppm can stall the cycle.

brandon429 · Sep 7, 2020

Team

his live rock component is already verified, we dont add ammonia to re verify already ready rock. that promotes its loss cycle, ammonia is for dry rock only systems. it is counter-productive to add to live rock, it burns small life forms $

as soon as thats added after a short transition period for dieoff if any, all bacteria are set. they transmit to the inert surfaces within two weeks such that if you removed the live rock and tested only the former interts, they'd pass.

if OP means he will add the rock in the future/after the cycle, then pick any brand of bottle bac you want and add it to the tank with some feed and a little bit of ammonia for cycling. let stew ten days, change water to a large degree to export algae feed, and you're cycled. all the common bottlebac have been tested to work well within this short wait time.