Looking for some validation...

[penguinexdeus]

Feeling a bit bummed today and looking to try and understand some things...

So I'm new to SPS and have been working on making my newest tank SPS dominant. Tank is on newer side (about 5 months), but has been mostly stable. I've lost some acro frags here and there but could usually point to something I did. Last month the tank's been doing great and some of the frags I had that came from one of my other tanks that had been brown in that tank actually started coloring up. Seeing the slightest amounts of new growth. Most things have good polyp extension. However apparently overnight I completely lost one frag, that yesterday was fine and today is nothing but stark white skeleton. Things have been stable with no large swings so it's really thrown me off.

Is this just life with acros? What are the signs of RTN/STN and what do they look like? I just assume since this thing died overnight it was RTN... But how can I tell if something is STN?

Also how much of an alk swing is acceptable? I generally don't see more than a 0.2 swing if I try to play catch up on dosing if it depletes faster than expected.

Current Parameters (75 gal display/ 30 sump):
KH - 8.3
CAL - 410
MAG - 1430
Nitrate - 5.1
Phos - 0.05
PH 7.9 - 8.1

 

[Beau_B]

I don’t have any words of wisdom, other than “you’re not alone.”

 

[dhnguyen]

SPS (especially acros) is all about stability and biodiversity.
What are you dosing?
Did you start the tank with live rock or dry rock? LR alone can make a huge difference in improving your chances with SPS.

 

[penguinexdeus]

SPS (especially acros) is all about stability and biodiversity.
What are you dosing?
Did you start the tank with live rock or dry rock? LR alone can make a huge difference in improving your chances with SPS.

Started with dry rock, and dos ESV 2 part. I use AF Lifesource lightly about once a month to help with some biodiversity. and Algaebarn Eco Pods monthly. Last ICP test last month came back with iodine low, but everything else in range. Hoping as time goes on things only continue to improve.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Feeling a bit bummed today and looking to try and understand some things...

So I'm new to SPS and have been working on making my newest tank SPS dominant. Tank is on newer side (about 5 months), but has been mostly stable. I've lost some acro frags here and there but could usually point to something I did. Last month the tank's been doing great and some of the frags I had that came from one of my other tanks that had been brown in that tank actually started coloring up. Seeing the slightest amounts of new growth. Most things have good polyp extension. However apparently overnight I completely lost one frag, that yesterday was fine and today is nothing but stark white skeleton. Things have been stable with no large swings so it's really thrown me off.

Is this just life with acros? What are the signs of RTN/STN and what do they look like? I just assume since this thing died overnight it was RTN... But how can I tell if something is STN?

Also how much of an alk swing is acceptable? I generally don't see more than a 0.2 swing if I try to play catch up on dosing if it depletes faster than expected.

Current Parameters (75 gal display/ 30 sump):
KH - 8.3
CAL - 410
MAG - 1430
Nitrate - 5.1
Phos - 0.05
PH 7.9 - 8.1

While SPS are challenging they do require the most stable condition possible. Generally when they bleach like this, several factors are in place and need correction
Some are :
Lights too bright causing issues with zooxanthellae production
Alk too low
calcium elevated
High salinity
Pests - which i dont think is an issue right now
Low phos
High nitrate
placement in the tank
High temperature

 

[dhnguyen]

That's probably your problem right there @ dry rock. Every single person I know who started a tank with dry rock have had a very hard time keeping SPS and most don't seem to be able to keep any until after a year or so when the tank matured.

Dry rock just don't have the biodiversity needed for SPS to thrive. Whereas my current tank was started with all LR and I have been keeping SPS since the second week.

 

[dhnguyen]

What's your pH reading during the night time? You may want to start dosing kalkwasser at lights out to compensate and keep pH stable. Night time is also when SPS grow and build their skeletons.

 

[jmichaelh7]

That's probably your problem right there @ dry rock. Every single person I know who started a tank with dry rock have had a very hard time keeping SPS and most don't seem to be able to keep any until after a year or so when the tank matured.

Dry rock just don't have the biodiversity needed for SPS to thrive. Whereas my current tank was started with all LR and I have been keeping SPS since the second week.

I agree with the 1 year ish mark . That seems to be the sweet spot from what I’ve read

5 months seems early . If you want to know why then I’d say the time table.

Can you hold off on putting more sps in until a few more months ? Of course you can get away with sps right now , there is so many possibilities. But to answer your question I’d say give it some time for the tank to “Mature”

-Is this just life with acros? I’d say yes when stability is not there in a young reef tank.

 

[AKL1950]

That's probably your problem right there @ dry rock. Every single person I know who started a tank with dry rock have had a very hard time keeping SPS and most don't seem to be able to keep any until after a year or so when the tank matured.

Dry rock just don't have the biodiversity needed for SPS to thrive. Whereas my current tank was started with all LR and I have been keeping SPS since the second week.

My tank was started with dry rock. The tank is barely 6 months old since cycling in. I’ve got 50 corals in it now with 18 Acro frags and they are growing like weeds. Several have already grown off the posts and are incrusting on the rock. I think that dry rock may slow down the start of a tanks biodiversity, but I don’t think it will kill a coral over night.

OP are you sure the coral is dead, or just looks dead. One of my first corals is a Paradise Tenuis. I was sure it was dead. Hit it with a black light late at night and it flouresced right up. Maybe it’s not dead, but is just way stressed about something like light or something else. Don’t give up on it till you are sure it’s gone.

My Tenuis under regular light and black light. It’s definitely not as pretty and colorful as the rest, but it’s not dead.

 

[Dburr1014]

Feeling a bit bummed today and looking to try and understand some things...

So I'm new to SPS and have been working on making my newest tank SPS dominant. Tank is on newer side (about 5 months), but has been mostly stable. I've lost some acro frags here and there but could usually point to something I did. Last month the tank's been doing great and some of the frags I had that came from one of my other tanks that had been brown in that tank actually started coloring up. Seeing the slightest amounts of new growth. Most things have good polyp extension. However apparently overnight I completely lost one frag, that yesterday was fine and today is nothing but stark white skeleton. Things have been stable with no large swings so it's really thrown me off.

Is this just life with acros? What are the signs of RTN/STN and what do they look like? I just assume since this thing died overnight it was RTN... But how can I tell if something is STN?

Also how much of an alk swing is acceptable? I generally don't see more than a 0.2 swing if I try to play catch up on dosing if it depletes faster than expected.

Current Parameters (75 gal display/ 30 sump):
KH - 8.3
CAL - 410
MAG - 1430
Nitrate - 5.1
Phos - 0.05
PH 7.9 - 8.1

0.2 alk swing, what time of day are you testing and are you testing the same time everyday?

I think Biodiversity just may the problem. Is it possible to source live rock from lfs, fellow reefer, ect?

 

[penguinexdeus]

What's your pH reading during the night time? You may want to start dosing kalkwasser at lights out to compensate and keep pH stable. Night time is also when SPS grow and build their skeletons.

PH drops to 7.9/ 8.0 usually. I run fuge lights at night to try and help, and am using a co2 scrubber, but I bought stuff for kalk dosing during the sales

 

[penguinexdeus]

0.2 alk swing, what time of day are you testing and are you testing the same time everyday?

I think Biodiversity just may the problem. Is it possible to source live rock from lfs, fellow reefer, ect?

Using the default Trident settings for timing of tests, so alk gets tested 4x a day. 0.2 alk swing isn't normal for me... But if I lose ground on the alk dosing I add a bit more to try and bump it up. Not sure how fast/ how much of an alk movement is ok

 

[sculpin01]

I believe Rich Ross coined the phrase "corals suck at life" and Acropora especially. Corals die, even in established tanks maintained by expert aquarists. It's just how it is.

I personally feel the reason that dry rock tanks don't do well the first year is that they are nutrient deserts. Live rock tanks often start with mass die offs of organisms, translating into a ton of nutrients dumped into the system. In addition, the organisms that do survive represent an immediate biomass that can start utilizing said nutrient dump (causing the "ugly period" with macroalgal blooms, etc). Eventually, the nutrient load and biomass stabilize (a "fully cycled" tank) and the tank becomes habitable by corals.

In a dry rock tank, there is no initial nutrient dump for organisms to grow off of, leading to blooms of organisms that thrive in low nutrient conditions (dinoflagellates, chrysophytes, etc). Attempts to eradicate these plagues often make this worse by attempting to starve the system of nitrogen and phosphate. In addition, dry rock is notorious for absorbing phosphate from the water, further lowering availability. The "one year point" for dry rock tanks is probably when the tank finally achieves a nutrient balance conducive to coral survival.

Corals need a nitrogen source and phosphate in order to produce new tissue. However, how much nitrogen and phosphate are required for survival varies from coral to coral, with some happily surviving with minimal nutrients while others crump with what should be reasonable values. I suspect the latter is what happened to your dead coral.

YMMV

 

[92Miata]

I believe Rich Ross coined the phrase "corals suck at life" and Acropora especially. Corals die, even in established tanks maintained by expert aquarists. It's just how it is.

I personally feel the reason that dry rock tanks don't do well the first year is that they are nutrient deserts. Live rock tanks often start with mass die offs of organisms, translating into a ton of nutrients dumped into the system. In addition, the organisms that do survive represent an immediate biomass that can start utilizing said nutrient dump (causing the "ugly period" with macroalgal blooms, etc). Eventually, the nutrient load and biomass stabilize (a "fully cycled" tank) and the tank becomes habitable by corals.

In a dry rock tank, there is no initial nutrient dump for organisms to grow off of, leading to blooms of organisms that thrive in low nutrient conditions (dinoflagellates, chrysophytes, etc). Attempts to eradicate these plagues often make this worse by attempting to starve the system of nitrogen and phosphate. In addition, dry rock is notorious for absorbing phosphate from the water, further lowering availability. The "one year point" for dry rock tanks is probably when the tank finally achieves a nutrient balance conducive to coral survival.

Corals need a nitrogen source and phosphate in order to produce new tissue. However, how much nitrogen and phosphate are required for survival varies from coral to coral, with some happily surviving with minimal nutrients while others crump with what should be reasonable values. I suspect the latter is what happened to your dead coral.

YMMV

Yup. "Your zero phosphate reading isn't true, the algae is just consuming it too fast to measure" kills more corals than probably anything else in this hobby.

It's not really a biodiversity thing - it's a surface coverage and food-web thing. Mature tanks have all sorts of critters that are spawning on a regular basis - snails, worms, etc - and that's all food. Wild reefs have low inorganic phosphate - but they are absolutely awash in particulate and planktonic food.

 

[Timfish]

Consider the possibility the frag had a problem before you got it. Reefers have been told growth and color are how to tell if a coral is healthy but unfortunately neither can be realiably used to determine health. It is an unfortunate result of economics that basicly only small frags are available but the small size of many frags increases the likelyhood they will not survive. Add in the points made above and it can be a very frustrating and expensive experience. I would reiterate the above comments about microbiomes. There are many, many species of corals we can't keep yet and others that do well for some but not most. research like this one on Acropora millipora and this one looking at the wild distribution of Acropora microclades and this one looking at aurabiomes show just how critical microbiomes as well as tank mates are to keeping some species.