Looking For Startup Advice

[Jonathan G]

Greetings all, new to the forum here and to salt water aquariums. I’ve had a fresh water setup for several years and always wanted to get into salt water and have finally decided to take the plunge.

After reading quite a bit here on the forums and other books and sites my understanding is that a larger tank can be a better option even for someone newer than a smaller tank. I live relatively close to “That Fish Place†in Lancaster PA and my family and I went there this past week to look at the tanks and supplies they had. After speaking with an employee there I left a little confused as he was adamant that as a beginner I should be getting a 29 gal bio cube. He said that would be the easiest thing for me to handle. After our discussion he gave me a hand-out that one of the marine biologists there wrote up. After getting home and reading it, the hand-out basically said that a bigger tank would be easier to handle. So I’m not really sure which way I should go to start out.

My initial idea was to go with a Marineland super system, specifically the 150XH reef capable system found here.
Complete Aquarium Kits with Stands: Marineland LED Standard Monterey Super Systems
After more research I’m concerned that the equipment that comes with it isn’t able to handle the tank size as well as concerned by comments I saw on this forum regarding Marinelands LED lighting not being good enough to handle reef setups. In addition the XH size is taller which I think would exacerbate the lighting deficiencies.

I have a large area to place the tank and my wife was excited about getting this tank until the Fish Place trip, they had a bio cube there setup and it will look quite small in the area she was planning to have the tank. While the aesthetics of our house are her primary concern mine is being able to handle the tank. I’m not afraid of the amount of work, more concerned over my lack of salt water experience.
My goal for the tank is to start simple but with the equipment that will let me develop a full reef tank as I progress. To that end my questions regarding equipment.

1. Tank size, what is recommended for someone starting out?
2. Live rock or dry rock, I was initially thinking live rock but after reading more here I can get dry rock for less and it will offer the same benefit of live rock after it “becomes liveâ€
3. Live sand or not? Same thinking as above
4. Equipment to handle FWLR to start but with an eye towards only need to purchase more equipment to handle a reef not replacing existing equipment.

One of the main things I would like to accomplish is to have a “single footprint†for the tank. I would like to house everything in/under the tank.
Thanks very much in advance.

 

[Saltwatertaylor]

A great starting aquarium is a 55 gallon. Saying this, if you can buy a bigger one. The bigger the aquarium, the less you have to worry about your water parameters fluctuating.
Definitely go with dead rock! If you buy live rock you have the chance of bringing in what we call "hitchhikers" and that is not a good thing!
Dont go with live sand, its a ripoff. It costs alot more, and its hard to think its still alive after being packaged for a long time.
Equipment: You need lighting- if your going reef it depends on the corals you wish to have. You dont technically need a protein skimmer, but it helps ALOT. You should have a sump, and in this sump a good idea is a refugium. Some type of filtration. If you want coral, you will need power heads. Im sure there is more im forgetting, but its a good start

 

[mainereefer]

I would get a 75g or a 120g imo are the best all around size tanks made. 55g is to skinny for how deep it is imo- not a good starter tank
live rock and live sand will give you bacteria's and critters you wont have or get from dead rock and dead sand, so some is almost a must have, that will help your tank cycle and thrive. most hitchhikers are great! you have a better chance of getting a bad hitchhiker from a coral or lfs water.

 

[Pappy]

Personally I would piece a system together and do a 40 breeder(much cheaper) . I think the marineland systems (pumps, lights, etc..)are not good quality but that is just my opinion

 

[Dixie_reefer]

It really depends on what you want. I have a 10 gallon as my first tank and it is going great so far. For your rock, you can get mostly dry rock and then get a few pounds of live rock to seed it with and help your cycle along. That will help your dry rock become live much faster. You can get either live or dry sand from the fish store. The "live" sand can have critters in it that you may not want. I got bristleworms in my live sand. They are ugly but they do help clean up your tank by eating left over food.

 

[SeahorseKeeper]

I would go with a 4 foot tank. I do not recommend a 55. They are too narrow and get crammed quick. I have a 55 and hate it. If you get a 4 foot tank, PM I might have a lighting fixture to get you started for cheap. It just needs new bulbs.

 

[KSzegi]

In my opinion, you should start with a larger tank - personally I would go with the size that fits the space you are looking to fill .... whether that is a 75, 90, 120 or 180 etc. The big benefit is that the larger amount of water will definitely be more stable and more forgiving. The downside is that the expenses will obviously be higher; you need more sand, more rock, more salt mix for changes, more lights etc etc. But if it is in the budget than I recommend going for it. My very first saltwater tank was a 35 gallon, started with bad advice and didn't go well. My next venture after much more research - was a 180 gallon and it was so much better!

As far as live rock and sand vs dry rock and sand ..... I personally will not do dry rock again. I started my 180 with live rock and live sand from TBS and went through a very minimal and very rapid cycling process. I did have to contend with some undesirable hitchhikers - but on the flip side also had a lot of good hitchikers that you don't get with dry rock either - and the tank was amazingly stable in very little time. When I set up my 90 gallon I thought I would try dry rock .... and was not nearly as happy with the results. I used a mix of live and 'dead' sand in that tank and was actually happier with that - but primarily because I went with a finer grain and a dsb. When I upgraded my 180 to the 300 dd .... I went with 'dead sand' with just a small amount of live sand to seed it - and this is the sand bed that I'm the happiest with so far - that is due mostly because of the tropic eden brand - nice and bright and extremely clean. I transferred all my old live rock from the 180 and added additional live rock of a different variety. I think live rock is very much worth the extra money but would probably not go with live sand again after using tropic eden. If you want to go live sand - make sure it is truly 'live' sand - not the commerically available bagged 'live sand'!

To accomplish your 'single footprint' tank - spend some real time thinking about your stand and what equipment you are going to want in it! My biggest problem with my 180 was that the stand was too short and very hard to work with equipment wise and made any chores in the sump or beneath the tank a nightmare! When I upgraded I went with a taller stand which made life SO much easier and also designed it so that two of the front doors open without a brace and both end panels are removable ..... easy access makes maintenance a lot easier!

I agree with the above to piece a system together. Watch for gently used and you can keep your costs down .... but don't skimp on your equipment if you want to just buy once either!

Welcome to R2R and the addiction!!

 

[Steelerfan747]

I would go with a 4ft 120g set up. It will take practically the same amount of real estate as a 55 g what will be much deeper allowing you better freedom to aquascape.
I would purchase the best equipment possible as if you're going to keep coral right from the start, that way you only have to purchase equipment once.
I would definitely buy a skimmer as it is 1 of the most important pieces of equipment you will need. I would incorporate a refugium for extraction of excess nutrients.
As far as light I would go with either leds or a t5 unit but would not recommend metal halides as they tend to heat up the water more than you would like.
Going with a larger aquarium is easier but if you decide to go smaller I would I would definitely recommend a controller to auto dose to help you even though I would still recommend a controller for a larger tank but feel it would benefit you a lot more on a smaller tank in helping with stability.

Whatever you decide good luck with it keep us posted and welcome to r2r

Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Pkunk35]

1. Tank size, what is recommended for someone starting out?
2. Live rock or dry rock, I was initially thinking live rock but after reading more here I can get dry rock for less and it will offer the same benefit of live rock after it “becomes live”
3. Live sand or not? Same thinking as above
4. Equipment to handle FWLR to start but with an eye towards only need to purchase more equipment to handle a reef not replacing existing equipment.

One of the main things I would like to accomplish is to have a “single footprint” for the tank. I would like to house everything in/under the tank.
Thanks very much in advance.

1) If you want to go bigger, I think a 75 or 90 gallon is a very nice starting size. Are you wanting big fish? Then you will need to go bigger than that...my favorite "stock" size is the 120 g, it offers great depth and height.
I think 29 is a great size too to learn from tho! I know plenty of people that have learned on that size tank. Please remember that as your tank gets bigger it seems like costs in this hobby go up exponentially.

2) Personally I think the base should be dry to save on costs and you can cherry pick the top or "show" rock if you wish or order a smaller box of the live stuff to top off your base rock.
3) Buy dry sand and then seed it with critters and live rock.
4) Sump. Learn about sumps and the different filtration methods you can use with them...then plan according to what you think will fit best with your tank. Looking at other member's setups is a great way to get ideas.

GL with the tank!!!

 

[2Sunny]

Wow! What an amazing great number of responses in a short time period! Kudos to R2R for having such a great group of individuals looking to help beginners.

Now here's my entry :neutral:

Jonathan, First take a deep breath . . . . ok, now repeat after me . . . I do NOT need a salt water tank . . . I do NOT need a saltwater tank


O.K. did that work?

No . . .

you still want a tank.

Alright, then here's the first bit of advice that everyone learns the hard way.


Buy the biggest tank you can afford or fit.

Simple fact: The bigger the tank the easier it is to maintain stable parameters and the more options you have in terms of inhabitants.


Rule number two:

Copy someone else.

Another simple fact, whatever you want has already been done. There are thousands of spectacular tanks featured online. Find your favorite in the size you like and copy it EXACTLY.


Rule number three:

Patience in this hobby is measured in months and years, NOT weeks.





As a brief aside I will add that the internet is FULL of advice givers, but it's up to you to decide who has the real answers. So to that point here's a picture of my tank, and please, please, please pepper me with questions if I can help!



Joe

 

[Saltwatertaylor]

Joe is that a pic of your tank?!?!

 

[Pkunk35]

Wow! What an amazing great number of responses in a short time period! Kudos to R2R for having such a great group of individuals looking to help beginners.

Now here's my entry :neutral:

Jonathan, First take a deep breath . . . . ok, now repeat after me . . . I do NOT need a salt water tank . . . I do NOT need a saltwater tank


O.K. did that work?

No . . .

you still want a tank.

Alright, then here's the first bit of advice that everyone learns the hard way.


Buy the biggest tank you can afford or fit.

Simple fact: The bigger the tank the easier it is to maintain stable parameters and the more options you have in terms of inhabitants.


Rule number two:

Copy someone else.

Another simple fact, whatever you want has already been done. There are thousands of spectacular tanks featured online. Find your favorite in the size you like and copy it EXACTLY.


Rule number three:

Patience in this hobby is measured in months and years, NOT weeks.





As a brief aside I will add that the internet is FULL of advice givers, but it's up to you to decide who has the real answers. So to that point here's a picture of my tank, and please, please, please pepper me with questions if I can help!



Joe

wow, beautiful tank!

 

[kmaintl]

Just like many others have suggested... if you've got the space, go with 4ft tank. 4ft tanks seems the most convenient to match equipment like lighting, skimmer size, pumps, etc. Also, it's big enough that you probably won't upgrade for awhile. If you're planning to keep corals, 120g is a great size to have. If fish only, a nice display front, but narrower is 90g.

If you like to be a little more agressive with working the algae off the face of the tank, get glass. But if you're careful and meticulus, acrylic is beautiful.

Best advice ever is... introduce livestock very slowly into your tank and quarantine everything for at least 4 weeks before you put into main tank. Doing things slowly, with patience, reduces stress on your system and with good quarantine practice, keep disease down to nill.

 

[Jonathan G]

Thank you all for the replies so far.

It seems that a larger tank is the right way to go so that will be my plan. My wife and I really like the 150XH that I linked to in my first post. Anyone have thoughts on it? I was looking at the super system that comes with everything but after reading some reviews and posts here on the pumps, skimmers, and sump that are included it sounds like it's inferior equipment. Also I'm concerned that the lighting system that comes with the super system isn't up to the task, especially for the extra tall unit I'd like. I can get just the tank and stand and then purchase other equipment to get it running but I'm concerned about getting the correct plumbing, while the super system comes with everything.

Also a follow-up question with regard to live/dead rock. I'm leaning towards a mix of dead rock as a foundation and live rock on top to save a little on cost. Will this work, just taking longer for the tank to be ready? I'm not in a rush so if it's extra weeks thats no issue as long as the end result is desireable for a healthy tank.

Also with the sand, is there a certain size that is better? Also shallow or deep? I'm leaning towards a deeper sand bed since it seems there are benefits and going with a taller tank I have more room.

Thanks again to all that posted and to 2sunny I just have to say that tank is amazing. I called my wife in to look at the picture and she turned to me and said, "Yes, make your tank look like that!". Needless to say I would be thrilled if I could cultivate a tnak that looked half that good.

 

[WillKatt]

Joe

Oh my! So beautiful! I think this tank is the most perfect picture of what I could aspire to one day. WOW:jaw:

 

[kmaintl]

Thank you all for the replies so far.

It seems that a larger tank is the right way to go so that will be my plan. My wife and I really like the 150XH that I linked to in my first post. Anyone have thoughts on it? I was looking at the super system that comes with everything but after reading some reviews and posts here on the pumps, skimmers, and sump that are included it sounds like it's inferior equipment. Also I'm concerned that the lighting system that comes with the super system isn't up to the task, especially for the extra tall unit I'd like. I can get just the tank and stand and then purchase other equipment to get it running but I'm concerned about getting the correct plumbing, while the super system comes with everything.

Also a follow-up question with regard to live/dead rock. I'm leaning towards a mix of dead rock as a foundation and live rock on top to save a little on cost. Will this work, just taking longer for the tank to be ready? I'm not in a rush so if it's extra weeks thats no issue as long as the end result is desireable for a healthy tank.

Also with the sand, is there a certain size that is better? Also shallow or deep? I'm leaning towards a deeper sand bed since it seems there are benefits and going with a taller tank I have more room.

Thanks again to all that posted and to 2sunny I just have to say that tank is amazing. I called my wife in to look at the picture and she turned to me and said, "Yes, make your tank look like that!". Needless to say I would be thrilled if I could cultivate a tnak that looked half that good.

I would encourage you to take your time and continue to do your research. Most systems are inadequate and when you upgrade your livestock, you have to replace your equipment. If you want to save money, get the right equipment initially for what you plan to do in the future.

As for rock, there's 2 schools of throught. Live rock has huge bacteria load, but also possible unknown pests and hair algae could come along with it. There's a huge ammonia spike in the beginning, but your tank is cycled in a week and after a water change, you can add livestock to your tank. Clean dead rocks take anywhere from 3 weeks + to cycle through the nitrogen cycle, but it's worry free from pests or any hair or bubble algae. Unfortunately, you have to wait almost a month before you can add any livestock to the sytem. Combo with 10% live rocks is good jump start, but you still risk pests or parasite on the live rock brought in.

 

[2Sunny]

Thank you all for the replies so far.

My wife and I really like the 150XH that I linked to in my first post. Anyone have thoughts on it?


Also a follow-up question with regard to live/dead rock. I'm leaning towards a mix of dead rock as a foundation and live rock on top to save a little on cost. Will this work, just taking longer for the tank to be ready? I'm not in a rush so if it's extra weeks thats no issue as long as the end result is desireable for a healthy tank.

Also with the sand, is there a certain size that is better? Also shallow or deep? I'm leaning towards a deeper sand bed since it seems there are benefits and going with a taller tank I have more room.

Thanks again to all that posted and to 2sunny I just have to say that tank is amazing. I called my wife in to look at the picture and she turned to me and said, "Yes, make your tank look like that!". Needless to say I would be thrilled if I could cultivate a tnak that looked half that good.

Thanks Jonathan for the compliment

First the questions you are asking are excellent, BUT understand that amongst the "hardcore" reefers nearly all your questions are highly controversial so you will find folks on both sides of the fence. Now having said that I will begin with my highly biased and opinionated advice :neutral: . . .

First I do not care for the tank you linked to as it uses LEDs. I am a BIG LED naysayer. I have tried 4 brands personally, am close friends with the owner of a LFS that has tried others and am currently helping a ridiculously wealthy gentleman building a 2000 gallon system with all PacSun LED fixtures and I can tell you that not all corals thrive under LEDs, but ALL corals thrive under T5s. LEDs have many benefits, but universal success with all corals is NOT one of them.

Second, Live Rock, LR, versus dry rock. The primary reason for using dry rock is "no pests". The primary reason for using LR is bio-diversity. I believe bio-diversity is THE key to your future success. If you are patient and put LR in for 3 months with no corals, you will have a chance to eliminate all pests before starting up your reef so I vote LR.

Third, deep sand bed, DSB, bare bottom, or shallow sand bed. Again this is incredibly controversial and has been argued online thousands and thousands of times. I currently have a shallow sand bed. It takes a lot of maintenance to keep it looking the way I like. A DSB MAY improve the biology of your tank, and here too live sand adds to the bio-diversity. A bare bottom is the easiest to maintain, but to my eye looks wholly unattractive. I vote DSB. I'm actually in the process of redoing my own tank and installing a DSB after 5 years of a shallow bed because I believe it will ultimately result in less maintenance.

Fourth, tank height. If you can't reach the bottom of your tank easily, you will struggle to keep it clean. I vote 30 inches or less for the height.

As a suggestion I would say that I am really impressed with the Red Sea offerings. They aren't perfect, but if you are looking for "plug and play" you can't go wrong. Red Sea S-Series. The main issue here would be if you are desparate for "shimmer" because T5 alone does not give the tank any "shimmer".

On the one hand I'm really excited for you since you're just starting out, but on the other hand I know you will be inundated with lots of differing opinions so again I would just add that everything you could ever imagine has probably already been done, and if you can find someones tank that you like I would say just copy that one.

No matter what you decide I hope you will continue to use me as a resource as much as you'd like. There are a gazillion options in reefing, but if you want colorful corals, I'm definitely your man!


Joe

And here's some more pics from my tank for your wife :angel:

 

[Saltwatertaylor]

Can we get a video of that tank?

 

[Jonathan G]

Just wanted to update this thread, after much research I've taken the plunge. I started a new thread for the build which can be found at the link below. Thanks again to everyone who provided advice and thanks to 2Sunny who has set my wife's expectations for this through the roof :bigsmile:

https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/member-tanks/100707-my-140-gallon-build.html