Looking for thoughts on organic carbon dosing and nitrate

[Lasse]

That is correct to a some extent, but the main reason why our aquariums are organic carbon limited is the cellular respiration where most of organic carbon from the food is lost as CO2 (gas).

To be lost - it most be found first - or in this case be readily available. Most organic matter has nearly the same C/N/P ratio as the organisms that consume it. N and P are mostly readily available but much of the C are not that. Some of the bound carbon will form (in anaerobic environment) temporary carbon compounds such as carbohydrates (starch and sugar) and various alcohols before becoming available and excreted as CO2, Further on some C is so tightly bound that upon complete mineralization it will not become CO2 but CH4. I still will say that using DOC in a aerobic aquarium environment is a shortcut that eliminates the need for anaerobic release of the more tightly bound carbon.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Not sure what is the purpose of the experiment then?

Easy - it is difference between thoughts and reality. I have not measured NO2 during my up and down periods before and you highlight a week point in my thoughts. This time - my GFO is also established (not new) - I will measure the PO4 from tomorrow

Sincerely Lasse

 

[biom]

To be lost - it most to be found first - or in this case be readily available. Most organic matter has nearly the same C/N/P ratio as the organisms that consume it. N and P are mostly readily available but much of the C are not that. Some of the bound carbon will form (in anaerobic environment) temporary carbon compounds such as carbohydrates (starch and sugar) and various alcohols before becoming available and excreted as CO2, Further on some C is so tightly bound that upon complete mineralization it will not become CO2 but CH4. I still will say that using DOC in a aerobic aquarium environment is a shortcut that eliminates the need for anaerobic release of the more tightly bound carbon.

Sincerely Lasse

My point was: significant part of the organic carbon (carbohydrates, fats, proteins) that comes with the food will end up as CO2 (gas) because of the respiration process and will escape from aquarium system.
What is happening in anaerobic conditions with the hard to digest polymer carbohydrates such as cellulose and chitin from animals' excrements is another question.

 

[Lasse]

significant part of the organic carbon (carbohydrates, fats, proteins) that comes with the food will end up as CO2 (gas) because of the respiration process and will escape from aquarium system.

That´s - IMO - not the main reason why dissolved organic carbon is limited for fast decomposing. Compare a compost that is run solely on food scraps and one that is run with food scraps and added organic carbon in the form of wood chips. Both with good oxygen supply through the compost. Even if the food scraps have the same C/P/N ratio as the bacteria, not much of the bound carbon in the food scraps is as available as the organic carbon in the wood chips

Sincerely Lasse

 

[biom]

That´s - IMO - not the main reason why dissolved organic carbon is limited for fast decomposing. Compare a compost that is run solely on food scraps and one that is run with food scraps and added organic carbon in the form of wood chips. Both with good oxygen supply through the compost. Even if the food scraps have the same C/P/N ratio as the bacteria, not much of the bound carbon in the food scraps is as available as the organic carbon in the wood chips

Sincerely Lasse

I am sorry we are talking about different things, I am not talking about decomposing at all, but nevermind don't want to go in the discussion if the wood chips are easier for decomposition than a potato, not my field

 

[Lasse]

I am sorry we are talking about different things, I am not talking about decomposing

Both are decomposing (heterotrophic bacterial/microbial breakdown of organic matter in the presence of oxygen) - the only thing is that one of them happens in water and the other at dry land. The process is also named mineralizing.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

I have move my follow up of the test to my own build thread. - here

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Please see my build thread - there are measurements - if they are real measurements - that can indicate a partly other explanation to my success with my reversed flow DSB and nitrate reduction than classic denitrification.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[wisnia99]

Randy it took me a whole month and half of vodka dosing no results. I then switched to NOPOX and it dropped from 30 to now 7.7 as of yesterday within 3 weeks. I think you need different carbon sources for all the different bacteria in order for carbon dosing to work efficiently.

starting:

nitrates at 30
Po4 at .20

today:

nitrates 7.7
Po4 at .04

What is the size of your system and how much you started dosing? I have the same numbers and want to start NOPOX

 

[I never finish anythi]

Does distilled malt vinegar do the same job as distilled white vinegar??

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Does distilled malt vinegar do the same job as distilled white vinegar??

Mostly yes. Different vinegars just have different minor components and concentrations. IMO, there’s no reason to not use the cheapest distilled white vinegar.

 

[I never finish anythi]

Mostly yes. Different vinegars just have different minor components and concentrations. IMO, there’s no reason to not use the cheapest distilled white vinegar.

Thanks for confirming. Appreciate it .

 

[bishoptf]

I am halfway through this thread, I have a DIY 33g long AIO nano that I have started carbon dosing 2-3 weeks ago. I am using the DIY Nopox recipe 500 mls Vinegar, 375 mls Vodka (40%) and 125 mls of RO/DI. I started with 1ml per 100l/25g and have gone to 2ml. Starting tomorrow I am going to increase that to 3ml. Current numbers are Nitrate - 35 and Po4 .18-.2.

My one question that I have searched for but not really found much information is in regards to Bare Bottom tanks. Most if not all of the ones I have read and searched all have sand which I assume can help with the nitrate reduction. I have a lot of rock but starting to wonder if I will be able to effectively reduce nitrates without any sand. If anyone has seen any bare bottom and carbon dosing successfully I would be interested, would also be interested in any thoughts regarding carbon dosing and bare bottom tanks.

Thanks

 

[ggNoRe]

Thought it would be a good idea to post about my recent experience to the thread. Background: system is almost 3 years old and 200 gallons. Decided to do carbon dosing since my nitrates got up to 30 and my phosphates were about 0.1 and being controlled by GFO. I chose to use distilled white vinegar as vodka had given me some cyano in the past. Dosed roughly 20 ml a day for about 2 weeks and then quit when I started to see cyano build up in my sump. Nitrates never went down at all and tested at the same 30 afterwards. At the start of my dosing there was no signs of cyano anywhere.

Side note: I was running a skimmer and UV sterilizer 24/7 throughout the whole process and this may have affected the results.

 

[Miami Reef]

I am halfway through this thread, I have a DIY 33g long AIO nano that I have started carbon dosing 2-3 weeks ago. I am using the DIY Nopox recipe 500 mls Vinegar, 375 mls Vodka (40%) and 125 mls of RO/DI. I started with 1ml per 100l/25g and have gone to 2ml. Starting tomorrow I am going to increase that to 3ml. Current numbers are Nitrate - 35 and Po4 .18-.2.

My one question that I have searched for but not really found much information is in regards to Bare Bottom tanks. Most if not all of the ones I have read and searched all have sand which I assume can help with the nitrate reduction. I have a lot of rock but starting to wonder if I will be able to effectively reduce nitrates without any sand. If anyone has seen any bare bottom and carbon dosing successfully I would be interested, would also be interested in any thoughts regarding carbon dosing and bare bottom tanks.

Thanks

I had great success with lowering my nitrates with vodka or vinegar in my bare bottom tank. Both work equally well in my experience.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thought it would be a good idea to post about my recent experience to the thread. Background: system is almost 3 years old and 200 gallons. Decided to do carbon dosing since my nitrates got up to 30 and my phosphates were about 0.1 and being controlled by GFO. I chose to use distilled white vinegar as vodka had given me some cyano in the past. Dosed roughly 20 ml a day for about 2 weeks and then quit when I started to see cyano build up in my sump. Nitrates never went down at all and tested at the same 30 afterwards. At the start of my dosing there was no signs of cyano anywhere.

Side note: I was running a skimmer and UV sterilizer 24/7 throughout the whole process and this may have affected the results.

Thanks for the info. The growth of cyano is, IMO, a problematic factor in organic carbon dosing, if it occurs. As to nitrate not dropping, IMO your dose was quite low for a 200 gallon system.

 

[Troylee]

No issues with np bacto balance and I’ve dosed so much I’ve had a couple blooms lol.. never once saw a spec of cyano.. to add to that I also use zeo bak with it. Mb7 once a week I throw a capful in with my diy coral snow.

 

[Court_Appointed_Hypeman]

Thanks for the info. The growth of cyano is, IMO, a problematic factor in organic carbon dosing, if it occurs. As to nitrate nit dropping, IMO your dose was quite low for a 200 gallon system.

What are your thoughts on the reason cyano can take off with carbon dosing?

My guess is the conpetition the cyano has that keeps it out of site cannot or does not benefit from carbon, which leads me to wonder if introducing more live rock from a system that does carbon dose would help.

Cyano must always be present right? Is it possible there are systems that just don't have it at all?

 

[Court_Appointed_Hypeman]

Thought it would be a good idea to post about my recent experience to the thread. Background: system is almost 3 years old and 200 gallons. Decided to do carbon dosing since my nitrates got up to 30 and my phosphates were about 0.1 and being controlled by GFO. I chose to use distilled white vinegar as vodka had given me some cyano in the past. Dosed roughly 20 ml a day for about 2 weeks and then quit when I started to see cyano build up in my sump. Nitrates never went down at all and tested at the same 30 afterwards. At the start of my dosing there was no signs of cyano anywhere.

Side note: I was running a skimmer and UV sterilizer 24/7 throughout the whole process and this may have affected the results.

.1ml per gallon might be a really high dose that soon honestly. I dose .009 per gallon and i have to heavily feed reef roids reef chilli, aminos, and amonia daily to keep nitrate and phos detectable.

Edit: of course this doesn't account for the rest of the export methods you and I use so I might be completely wrong in my assessment.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

What are your thoughts on the reason cyano can take off with carbon dosing?

Cyanobacteria can consume organics, just like other bacteria. Plus, they can photosynthesize and they can take N2 from the air and convert it into useful molecules. That might give them a boost over bacteria that cannot. They may also thrive better than other bacteria just in general as they are a very successful set of organisms in the ocean:

"Cyanobacteria, previously known as blue-green algae, are the most primitive organism present on the earth. They play a vital role as the primary sources of oxygen and as nitrogen fixing agents in aquatic environments"

Cyanobacteria—From the Oceans to the Potential Biotechnological and Biomedical Applications - PMC

Cyanobacteria are photosynthetic prokaryotic organisms which represent a significant source of novel, bioactive, secondary metabolites, and they are also considered an abundant source of bioactive compounds/drugs, such as dolastatin, cryptophycin 1, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov