Looks Like Ich... But I'm Not Sure...

Dom · Oct 10, 2017

I have to admit, after a week of QT, I was tempted to put my new Valentino Puffer into the DT. Here it is, just 10 days after purchase and it's looking like the little guy has developed Ich. But I'm not certain.

There a lot of bubbles in the tank from the high rate of water flow. And you can clearly see the bubbles on the belly. But the rest? I think it is Ich and would like a confirmation. Here are some pics... They are high res so feel free to zoom in.

Oh the importance of quarantining!!!!

So have a look and let me know what you think. if it is Ich, what are my treatment options?

redfishbluefish · Oct 10, 2017

Let's get the right eyes on this...... @Humblefish , @melypr1985 , @4FordFamily , @Brew12

LuckyPhil · Oct 10, 2017

Size looks like ich to me mate.
The white spot appearance is the trophont stage, if it is c.irritans/white spot/ich then you should see it drop off between 3-7 days.
If it drops off a lot earlier then you should prepare for velvet.

Dom · Oct 10, 2017

LuckyPhil said:
Size looks like ich to me mate.
The white spot appearance is the trophont stage, if it is c.irritans/white spot/ich then you should see it drop off between 3-7 days.
If it drops off a lot earlier then you should prepare for velvet.

How happy am I that I QT'd this guy? LOL

Brew12 · Oct 10, 2017

I can't say for sure it is Ich, but it does look like it. The variation of sizes makes me a bit unsure. No way I would transfer to a DT in that condition though. Watch the spots closely and make sure they stay in the same spot for at least 2 or 3 days. If you take a picture tomorrow and the spots look like they are in different positions you have something else going on.

If you see signs of him swimming into power heads or hiding from light then treat for velvet. The smaller spots have me more concerned than the larger ones.

Dom · Oct 10, 2017

Brew12 said:
I can't say for sure it is Ich, but it does look like it. The variation of sizes makes me a bit unsure. No way I would transfer to a DT in that condition though. Watch the spots closely and make sure they stay in the same spot for at least 2 or 3 days. If you take a picture tomorrow and the spots look like they are in different positions you have something else going on.

If you see signs of him swimming into power heads or hiding from light then treat for velvet. The smaller spots have me more concerned than the larger ones.

I have to say... he is eating very well. Also, he seems happy and engages me as I approach the tank. In short; he is acting healthy.

Humblefish · Oct 10, 2017

It looks like ich to me as well. Can you get CP? https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/chloroquine-phosphate.192309/

That would cover you both ways (in case this is actually velvet), and IME puffers handle CP extremely well.

Dom · Oct 10, 2017

Humblefish said:
It looks like ich to me as well. Can you get CP? https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/chloroquine-phosphate.192309/

That would cover you both ways (in case this is actually velvet), and IME puffers handle CP extremely well.

Update...

Just back from the local vet. Since he didn't treat "exotics", he didn't want to provide the prescription. I guess I could understand that. I mean if he doesn't know that CP is used to treat ich, I could be using the CP for anything. I'm guessing it is a liability issue. He did provide me with the name of an exotics vet who treats fish, so, I will get there within the next day or so.

I did contact my LFS, although it is about 40 minutes away in NJ... hardly local for me! LOL. But I find that they are EXTREMELY knowledgeable and accurate.

I've decided to take a non-chemical approach.

I just completed a 5 minute dip in tap water. I was surprised that they recommended tap, but they are the experts. I would have thought RODI, but he explained that there are elements present in tap which aid in the sloughing off of the parasite. I also removed 500ml of water from the QT and replaced it with 500ml of RODI causing the salinity to come down to 37ppt from 40ppt. Yikes! Didn't realize it was so high. Gradual correction of 3ppt over the next 8 days will get me down to 16ppt, which I will maintain for 30 days. Then I will gradually raise the salinity at the same rate and hold for another 30 days. Looks like this guy is gonna be in the QT until the end of the year.

Is there a filter media capable of filtering out the parasites?

Brew12 · Oct 10, 2017

Dom said:
Update...

Just back from the local vet. Since he didn't treat "exotics", he didn't want to provide the prescription. I guess I could understand that. I mean if he doesn't know that CP is used to treat ich, I could be using the CP for anything. I'm guessing it is a liability issue. He did provide me with the name of an exotics vet who treats fish, so, I will get there within the next day or so.

I did contact my LFS, although it is about 40 minutes away in NJ... hardly local for me! LOL. But I find that they are EXTREMELY knowledgeable and accurate.

I've decided to take a non-chemical approach.

I just completed a 5 minute dip in tap water. I was surprised that they recommended tap, but they are the experts. I would have thought RODI, but he explained that there are elements present in tap which aid in the sloughing off of the parasite. I also removed 500ml of water from the QT and replaced it with 500ml of RODI causing the salinity to come down to 37ppt from 40ppt. Yikes! Didn't realize it was so high. Gradual correction of 3ppt over the next 8 days will get me down to 16ppt, which I will maintain for 30 days. Then I will gradually raise the salinity at the same rate and hold for another 30 days. Looks like this guy is gonna be in the QT until the end of the year.

Is there a filter media capable of filtering out the parasites?

Unfortunately, 16ppt isn't nearly low enough for hypo-salinity treatment. If you want to take that route you need to get down to the 11pp to 12ppt range. This is effective for some strains of Ich but there are some strains that are hypo resistant.

I suggest reading up on it here.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/hyposalinity.247596/

Dom · Oct 10, 2017

Brew12 said:
Unfortunately, 16ppt isn't nearly low enough for hypo-salinity treatment. If you want to take that route you need to get down to the 11pp to 12ppt range. This is effective for some strains of Ich but there are some strains that are hypo resistant.

I suggest reading up on it here.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/hyposalinity.247596/

Yes... I read that. It said:

"Pros - Chemical free solution to ich, gentle on the fish. Scientific research also showed hyposalinity at 15 ppt (1.011 SG) for 2 days eliminated juvenile and adult flukes. When maintained for 5 days, egg hatching was prevented."

That is where I got the 15ppt.

Humblefish · Oct 10, 2017

Dom said:
Is there a filter media capable of filtering out the parasites?

A UV sterilizer or diatom filter is capable of removing some of the free swimmers, but not all: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/diatom-filter-for-treating-external-parasites.212429/

Dom said:
Yes... I read that. It said:

"Pros - Chemical free solution to ich, gentle on the fish. Scientific research also showed hyposalinity at 15 ppt (1.011 SG) for 2 days eliminated juvenile and adult flukes. When maintained for 5 days, egg hatching was prevented."

That is where I got the 15ppt.

But you are treating for ich (or possibly velvet), not gill flukes.

Dom · Oct 10, 2017

Latest Pics... Looks like Ich to me. Anyone disagree? I don't think it is Velvet. I'm happy to say I've never had a fish with Velvet, but I have seen pictures. I would say Velvet is more dust-like. Kinda like a powdered doughnut. Also, I'd say Velvet isn't easily noticed looking directly at the fish. But, you can see it as a "dust" when looking down the long axis of the fish.

Humblefish · Oct 10, 2017

Yes, definitely ich.

Dom · Oct 10, 2017

Humblefish said:
Yes, definitely ich.

What do you think of my treatment approach of hypo salinity and daily 5 minute tap water baths? What is my target temp?

Humblefish · Oct 10, 2017

Dom said:
What do you think of my treatment approach of hypo salinity and daily 5 minute tap water baths? What is my target temp?

FW dips have no impact on ich trophonts, because they burrow in under the epithelium (outer skin layer). Osmotic shock only disrupts "surface" parasites (velvet, brook) and worms (flukes, turbellarians) causing some of them to drop off but usually NOT ALL. Thus, followup treatment in a quarantine tank is usually needed.

Hyposalinity sometimes works on ich, but hypo resistant strains of ich have been proven to exist (study done by Yambot in 2003.) SG must remain @ 1.009 for 30 days. I advise using a perfectly calibrated refractometer and auto top off system when performing hypo.

4FordFamily · Oct 11, 2017

That’s a really bad case of ich, I’d follow humble and the like’s advice as soon as possible and treat!

Dom · Oct 12, 2017

Update...

Things seem to be going well. Yesterday, I observed some of the white spots hanging off the puffer like streamers. And today, there is only 1 or 2 spots left. He seems happy, is eating and is tolerating the daily 5 minute fresh water dips well.

To bring down salinity, I've removed a gallon from the QT and set up a slow drip of fresh RODI water. The rate of the drip is reducing salinity at about 2ppt per day.

But I do have a question: How long should I do the daily fresh water dip? I've been doing it daily, but for how many days?

jozekgawlak · Oct 12, 2017

Thats ICH all right! Treat ASAP..

Radman73 · Oct 12, 2017

Dom said:
Update...

Things seem to be going well. Yesterday, I observed some of the white spots hanging off the puffer like streamers. And today, there is only 1 or 2 spots left. He seems happy, is eating and is tolerating the daily 5 minute fresh water dips well.

To bring down salinity, I've removed a gallon from the QT and set up a slow drip of fresh RODI water. The rate of the drip is reducing salinity at about 2ppt per day.

But I do have a question: How long should I do the daily fresh water dip? I've been doing it daily, but for how many days?

Have you considered TTM for treating the ich? The cost is very low for the setup, especially to treat a single fish. Several people have mentioned that hypo is NOT 100% certain to eradicate ich. TTM, when performed properly, will and is also a chemical and easy way to treat a fish.

Good luck!

Dom · Oct 12, 2017

Radman73 said:
Have you considered TTM for treating the ich? The cost is very low for the setup, especially to treat a single fish. Several people have mentioned that hypo is NOT 100% certain to eradicate ich. TTM, when performed properly, will and is also a chemical and easy way to treat a fish.

Good luck!

Well... it doesn't seem wise to change my course of action now that I have chosen this path. I will be staying the course that I am currently on.

I am uncertain by what you mean by TTM. Are you speaking of tank transfer? If so, you are speaking of setting up TWO tanks in which to bounce the fish back and forth between. So that would be the cost of a tank, filter, heater, salt water... times TWO.