Losing fish in QT

[ngoodermuth]

These are pictures of uronema... do any of those look like what was on your fish? Just making sure...

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/uronema-marinum.247940/

 

[AaronFReef]

These are pictures of uronema... do any of those look like what was on your fish? Just making sure...

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/uronema-marinum.247940/

Thanks. No it didn’t look like that. Just a small indentation on the firefish’s white side right on his gut that had a dull brown color to it. The other fish didn’t have any color on them. The wrasse produced some white strands of mucus or something I’m pretty sure.

 

[alprazo]

Maybe I read this thread or missed something. But if your ammonia levels are zero and nitrite ok, why are you assuming it is an ammonia problem. Especially using amquell or prime. Sounds like brooky to me, timing fits when fish getting sick and symptoms you describe. Just a thought. Good luck,

 

[AaronFReef]

Maybe I read this thread or missed something. But if your ammonia levels are zero and nitrite ok, why are you assuming it is an ammonia problem. Especially using amquell or prime. Sounds like brooky to me, timing fits when fish getting sick and symptoms you describe. Just a thought. Good luck,

The nitrites were high off the charts. I don’t know how to make sense of the ammonia readings between the salifert test and the seachem monitor being near zero.

 

[AaronFReef]

Maybe I read this thread or missed something. But if your ammonia levels are zero and nitrite ok, why are you assuming it is an ammonia problem. Especially using amquell or prime. Sounds like brooky to me, timing fits when fish getting sick and symptoms you describe. Just a thought. Good luck,

Yeah it does sound like brookynella could be what I was seeing with the white mucus. The two remaining fish died just now so I can look them over for any sign of the parasites. I suppose it’s time to drain the tank and sterilize it [emoji3525]

 

[Nokiaec11]

Ditch the quick work chemicals...start over and just mix the water half from your main tank on your next water change, and half new water...or all new water, and rocks from your main tank.

 

[ngoodermuth]

Yeah it does sound like brookynella could be what I was seeing with the white mucus. The two remaining fish died just now so I can look them over for any sign of the parasites. I suppose it’s time to drain the tank and sterilize it [emoji3525]

I’m not saying that is NOT brook, it’s certainly possible as it kills rather quickly and causes rapid breathing as well... but just want to note that wrasses are mucous-y by nature. If you’ve ever seen a fairy or flasher come out of it’s sleeping spot, you might see parts of it’s “cocoon” still clinging to it or the rocks.

But again, doesn’t rule out brooklynella as a possibility.

 

[AaronFReef]

What do you think of the fact that my ammonia was safe in the seachem monitor and barely non-zero on the salifert test? Did I actually have dangerous levels of ammonia? My nitrites were sky high indicating the bio filter wasn’t working, and the water was stinky and white indicating a bacterial bloom. Perhaps I just need an air stone in addition to my sponge air bubbling and to feed lighter? I really hope not to repeat my mistakes a third time.

 

[MnFish1]

What do you think of the fact that my ammonia was safe in the seachem monitor and barely non-zero on the salifert test? Did I actually have dangerous levels of ammonia? My nitrites were sky high indicating the bio filter wasn’t working, and the water was stinky and white indicating a bacterial bloom. Perhaps I just need an air stone in addition to my sponge air bubbling and to feed lighter? I really hope not to repeat my mistakes a third time.

Its possible the test is wrong (either the 0 ammonia or the 4 nitrite). If the nitrite was that high - the ammonia also had to be high at some point (whether you measured it or not). The one thing is nitrite is not nearly as big a problem in Saltwater as it is in fresh water. See this article: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.php

 

[AaronFReef]

So it’s official. It’s a fish genocide. I tried two more firefish from a reputable fish store and one died in 12 hours. The next in 72.

Here’s what happened: I drained the tank and let everything dry out over a week. I made new water in the tank and let it age for 24 hours before going back to the store. I added a Aquaclear 30 with a sponge that had been floating in my DT sump for a week 8 hours prior.

I removed that giant 4” PVC as I added the fish. First I floated the two new firefish for 30 mins. This time I slowly drip acclimated over two hours instead of one. This was because as I was starting the drip acclimation, I checked the salinity on the bag water which I’ve never done. It read 1.019. The dang fish store kept them in hyposalinity which I didn’t know! So now I’m freaking out cuz my QT is at 1.0265. So I top it off with RODI as the water is draining into the acclimation container to drop its salinity as much as I could which was only like 1.024. So the fish had a sizable salinity increase. I test the temp over time in the acclimation chamber which has dropped from 78 to 72. So now I’m worried they’re going to have a temp shock as well so I speed up the acclimation a bit after the container is more than half full (so the salinity increase won’t be sharp due to dilution). Still it’s four degrees shy. One of the firefish is already floating on his side on top a bit. What can I do... So I bag up the fish, put the bag in the tank to temperature acclimate for 15 and as the timer is ending, I fill their dip container with Ruby Reef Hydroplex in their recommenced dip dosing from QT tank water. I add the fish which probably gives them a mild shock of salinity as I doubt it was 100% matching at that point even after three times emptying their acclimation chamber, and I dip them for the recommended 10 mins.

The first fish is dead in 12 hours. The next in 72.

no sign of anything on the fish but a bit of mucus or decaying fin tips.

So now I’ve learned hyposalinity is a thing for stores now. So out of about 9 fish I’ve managed to keep one.

I’ve read the suggested articles on QT and read up myself but I just keep failing.

What would you guys do to get these fish to survive?

I do wonder if my 750 gph Hydor Koralia powerhead isn’t too much flow in a QT for fish which never seem to figure out to use the assorted PVC pipes.

 

[ngoodermuth]

What I typically do, is avoid the whole drip- acclimation all together. Too many things to control over that long of a period... temp, ammonia conversion (only an issue once the bag is opened and exposed to oxygen), salinity changes... etc.

Keeping the bag sealed, use a pin or needle and poke a small hole in the bag below the water level. Empty a few drops onto your refractometer to check salinity, then close the hole with a piece of tape and sit the bag in your QT to temp acclimate.

While the bag is floating, adjust your QT to match the bag salinity exactly. If you have to take water out and add fresh in... then do that. It helps to have a 5-gallon bucket with a small heater to bring the temp of your RODI up a bit before dumping it in, if you need to exchange a lot to get it to match. But, as long as the bag is sealed and hasn’t been exposed to air... you can let it float as long as you need to get everything matched up.

Then, once the temp and salinity of the bag and QT match - open the bag, take out the fish, and drop them in the QT.

I think the change in salinity is what did it in this case. Those red marks are common with osmotic shock. One thing to remember, it is much more difficult for fish to go up in salinity, than down. If your bag is higher salinity than your QT... you can safely drop a few points without issue. But, going up quickly is much more dangerous.

If I can’t find out ahead of time what my fish will arrive in, I’ll set the QT around 1.020 and adjust from there.

 

[ngoodermuth]

And, in my experience more flow in a QT is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing. I’d even suggest adding an air-stone as well.

 

[AaronFReef]

What I typically do, is avoid the whole drip- acclimation all together. Too many things to control over that long of a period... temp, ammonia conversion (only an issue once the bag is opened and exposed to oxygen), salinity changes... etc.

Keeping the bag sealed, use a pin or needle and poke a small hole in the bag below the water level. Empty a few drops onto your refractometer to check salinity, then close the hole with a piece of tape and sit the bag in your QT to temp acclimate.

While the bag is floating, adjust your QT to match the bag salinity exactly. If you have to take water out and add fresh in... then do that. It helps to have a 5-gallon bucket with a small heater to bring the temp of your RODI up a bit before dumping it in, if you need to exchange a lot to get it to match. But, as long as the bag is sealed and hasn’t been exposed to air... you can let it float as long as you need to get everything matched up.

Then, once the temp and salinity of the bag and QT match - open the bag, take out the fish, and drop them in the QT.

I think the change in salinity is what did it in this case. Those red marks are common with osmotic shock. One thing to remember, it is much more difficult for fish to go up in salinity, than down. If your bag is higher salinity than your QT... you can safely drop a few points without issue. But, going up quickly is much more dangerous.

If I can’t find out ahead of time what my fish will arrive in, I’ll set the QT around 1.020 and adjust from there.

Thanks. Really helpful again.

 

[AaronFReef]

And, in my experience more flow in a QT is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing. I’d even suggest adding an air-stone as well.

Ah okay. I had done that and then read somewhere someone say not to add air stones for the salt spray and the fractionation that will occur at the surface from it. I’ll try that.

Also, I forgot a few things: I added Amquel to the bag when I first got the fish done floating to neutralize any ammonia, and I added cupramine the morning following when the first fish died. So now I have cupramine in the tank and it’s due for its second dose for the regimen. I am planning on adding it and grabbing some firefish today from a more local fish store that doesn’t do hyposalinity. I’ll add the air stone too and put the Hydor back on.

 

[ngoodermuth]

I added Amquel to the bag when I first got the fish done floating to neutralize any ammonia, and I added cupramine the morning following when the first fish died

This is a big-no! You can’t use prime or amquel (or any ammonia reducers) with copper. It reacts poorly, causing the copper to become 10x more toxic.

I’m glad you mentioned that. In the future, if you plan to treat with copper you should use a bottled bacteria supplement (like BioSpira or Dr. Tim’s) instead, to help control ammonia.

The amquel should be inactive after about 48 hours, but I would do a pretty large water-change before adding more copper...just in case.

 

[Nokiaec11]

So it’s official. It’s a fish genocide. I tried two more firefish from a reputable fish store and one died in 12 hours. The next in 72.

Here’s what happened: I drained the tank and let everything dry out over a week. I made new water in the tank and let it age for 24 hours before going back to the store. I added a Aquaclear 30 with a sponge that had been floating in my DT sump for a week 8 hours prior.

I removed that giant 4” PVC as I added the fish. First I floated the two new firefish for 30 mins. This time I slowly drip acclimated over two hours instead of one. This was because as I was starting the drip acclimation, I checked the salinity on the bag water which I’ve never done. It read 1.019. The dang fish store kept them in hyposalinity which I didn’t know! So now I’m freaking out cuz my QT is at 1.0265. So I top it off with RODI as the water is draining into the acclimation container to drop its salinity as much as I could which was only like 1.024. So the fish had a sizable salinity increase. I test the temp over time in the acclimation chamber which has dropped from 78 to 72. So now I’m worried they’re going to have a temp shock as well so I speed up the acclimation a bit after the container is more than half full (so the salinity increase won’t be sharp due to dilution). Still it’s four degrees shy. One of the firefish is already floating on his side on top a bit. What can I do... So I bag up the fish, put the bag in the tank to temperature acclimate for 15 and as the timer is ending, I fill their dip container with Ruby Reef Hydroplex in their recommenced dip dosing from QT tank water. I add the fish which probably gives them a mild shock of salinity as I doubt it was 100% matching at that point even after three times emptying their acclimation chamber, and I dip them for the recommended 10 mins.

The first fish is dead in 12 hours. The next in 72.

no sign of anything on the fish but a bit of mucus or decaying fin tips.

So now I’ve learned hyposalinity is a thing for stores now. So out of about 9 fish I’ve managed to keep one.

I’ve read the suggested articles on QT and read up myself but I just keep failing.

What would you guys do to get these fish to survive?

I do wonder if my 750 gph Hydor Koralia powerhead isn’t too much flow in a QT for fish which never seem to figure out to use the assorted PVC pipes.

The sponge filter I see in the corner is enough for that size tank...

 

[MnFish1]

This is a big-no! You can’t use prime or amquel (or any ammonia reducers) with copper. It reacts poorly, causing the copper to become 10x more toxic.

I’m glad you mentioned that. In the future, if you plan to treat with copper you should use a bottled bacteria supplement (like BioSpira or Dr. Tim’s) instead, to help control ammonia.

The amquel should be inactive after about 48 hours, but I would do a pretty large water-change before adding more copper...just in case.

Amquel and cupramine definitely causes a problem - but is it not true that its 'ok' with non-chelated copper? (This is what I read somewhere) - but I dont use copper or amquel - so Im certainly no expert?

 

[AaronFReef]

To be clear, I used the amquel in the bag upon opening it. None of the amquel and copper should have mixed but thanks for watching out!

 

[ngoodermuth]

Amquel and cupramine definitely causes a problem - but is it not true that its 'ok' with non-chelated copper? (This is what I read somewhere) - but I dont use copper or amquel - so Im certainly no expert?

From my understanding, you shouldn’t use it with any copper... but I’ve never tested it to find out!

 

[ngoodermuth]

To be clear, I used the amquel in the bag upon opening it. None of the amquel and copper should have mixed but thanks for watching out!

Ok good, just making sure! I’ve seen some awful outcomes