Losing largest of pair, 3 times

[norfolkgarden]

We have had ocellaris clownfish for several years. Started with a large orange and small black. Usually 5/8" and 1" in size.
The largest dies after a year to a year and a half.

Bought a smaller orange for the now slightly larger black. The larger black was fine for over a year. So almost 2 years total age.

Just lost the larger black last week. Replaced it with a small black (5/8") and after 3 days the larger orange (1") and the small black swim together fine.

This is a depressing cycle.
Nothing obviously wrong with the larger fish each time, before disappearing or dying.

Since this is round 3, I don't think it is a coincidence?

Larger fish makes it to about 1.5" each cycle before dying.

Thank you for any info you can provide!

 

[mike werner]

sorry but not sure this is a mystery you are going to solve.without visual evidence of disease or predatory causes it may just be coincidence.hopefully 3rd times the charm.

 

[norfolkgarden]

sorry but not sure this is a mystery you are going to solve.without visual evidence of disease or predatory causes it may just be coincidence.hopefully 3rd times the charm.

I always understood you could mix different color morphs.
Are the black and the orange originals completely different species?
Is it possible they are fighting once they reach some level of sexual maturity?

 

[needbiggertanks]

Generally speaking (which can be dangerous in this hobby) i understand that most hobbyists have success with this, including myself. Although i recently lost one to the carpet. This does seem like some bad luck. I wonder what other fish you have, what size tank, and if you noticed any odd behavior or markings or illness etc. prior to thier disappearance/death?

 

[DracoKat]

I have two different clown morphs in my tank and they're bonded and mating, so I am not sure if aggression at sexual maturity would be a cause? it is possible I guess but with 3 different fish?

 

[Tahoe61]

Do you have any large Elephant Ear or Hairy Mushrooms? Any Serpent Stars?

 

[norfolkgarden]

Do you have any large Elephant Ear or Hairy Mushrooms? Any Serpent Stars?

Lol, we tried harems of Royal Gramma's 3 times.
Always lost them 1 by 1 over a few weeks, starting after about 2 weeks from introduction.
They were 3/4" to 1.25".
Always wondered of the two 8" black fuzzy brittle starfish and 8" reddish orange, 8" pale purple serpent starfish.

But the larger clownfish is the one that keeps dying.
Not the 3/4" ones.
And the clownfish stay up high in the rocks and swimming above the rocks. Not tucked away under the bottom rocks like where the Royal Gramma's slept.

 

[norfolkgarden]

Generally speaking (which can be dangerous in this hobby) i understand that most hobbyists have success with this, including myself. Although i recently lost one to the carpet. This does seem like some bad luck. I wonder what other fish you have, what size tank, and if you noticed any odd behavior or markings or illness etc. prior to thier disappearance/death?

75 gallon tank. But way too many fish in general.
3/4" to 2.5" and one 3.5" butterfly. 14 total?

Low nitrates and low phosphates. 200 pounds of live rock, cheato, Marine pure and PhosGuard forever. [emoji6]

Nothing that bothers the clowns.
Some of the others bother each other but a mild mannered flame angelfish (2.25") is the most aggressive fish in the tank.

I think they are slightly different sub species. True black ocellaris (Australia ?) and 'original' orange ocellaris.
Don't know if that can cause a problem.

The crazy part is it is always the larger one and it is after a year or so of the 2 of them looking and acting normal.

 

[Tahoe61]

With regard to the Royal Gramma, since they are sleeping in bolt holes I would think you might have a predator.

There are reports of clown fish residing or sleeping in large mushrooms types and being consumed by those larger types of mushrooms, hence the reason I asked.

http://www.3reef.com/threads/elephant-ear-fish-eating-mushroom-claimed-two-of-my-clowns.46269/
https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/294233-dang-elephant-ear-mushroom-ate-my-picasso-clown-tt/
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2046990

And I am one of those hobbyist that has had a serpent star hunt sleeping fish and consume them. I know a lot of people may be doubtful, but if a large serpent star gets lucky once and is able to catch a sleeping fish it becomes a learned behavior. Can not count the number of threads I have seen regarding repeated missing fish and the hobbyist finally removes the serpent star and low and behold no more missing fish.

 

[norfolkgarden]

With regard to the Royal Gramma, since they are sleeping in bolt holes I would think you might have a predator.

There are reports of clown fish residing or sleeping in large mushrooms types and being consumed by those larger types of mushrooms, hence the reason I asked.

http://www.3reef.com/threads/elephant-ear-fish-eating-mushroom-claimed-two-of-my-clowns.46269/
https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/294233-dang-elephant-ear-mushroom-ate-my-picasso-clown-tt/
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2046990

And I am one of those hobbyist that has had a serpent star hunt sleeping fish and consume them. I know a lot of people may be doubtful, but if a large serpent star gets lucky once and is able to catch a sleeping fish it becomes a learned behavior. Can not count the number of threads I have seen regarding repeated missing fish and the hobbyist finally removes the serpent star and low and behold no more missing fish.

Yup. I know better than to own a green serpent star or even a yellow. I know they can both get big (2' green, 1' yellow)
The Royal Gramma are the only ones I always wondered about being starfish food.

Current consensus is the black fuzzy brittle starfish are a smidge more likely to be the culprit if it was the starfish, and not just the Royal Grammas playing "whittle the blue green chromis down to 1 and then die anyway".
The serpent stars are visible 24/7 near the edge of the rocks. They were just the normal level of shyness for the first 5-6 months. They have all been in the tank for a little over 2 years.
Kind of reminds me of octopus without the maintenance.

We feed heavily. 2 to 3 cubes of frozen a day.
The starfish should be getting enough to eat. Their disks always look plump.

The clownfish never sleep, even in the dark of night.
I work really bizzare inconsistent hours so occasional viewing of the tank at 2 or 3am is kinda normal.
The clownfish are constantly doing the clownfish hover over their favorite spot high up near the top of the rocks at night.
They are about the least likely fish in the tank to encounter one of the starfish.
Every other fish beds down at night. Even the flame hawkfish and bonded pair of Longnose hawkfish sleep.
Even the 2 neon blue cleaner gobies and 2 neon gold cleaner gobies disappear at night and seem more like starfish food candidates.
Those are 2+ and 1.5+ years in the tank.

The only creatures moving around at night are the snails, the skunk cleaner shrimp and the blood red fire shrimp and the clownfish doing their hover dance.

Lol, the serpents get well fed during the day along with the fish. We leave the pumps on and let the fish shred the cubes as they float and melt.
There is a lot of food dropped to the bottom. We have 8 serpents total with the four 4" harlequins. The wasted 'fish' food gets put to good use.

I have a decent basic knowledge level after 6 years, but weird stuff like this completely confounds me.

 

[norfolkgarden]

With regard to the Royal Gramma, since they are sleeping in bolt holes I would think you might have a predator.

There are reports of clown fish residing or sleeping in large mushrooms types and being consumed by those larger types of mushrooms, hence the reason I asked.

http://www.3reef.com/threads/elephant-ear-fish-eating-mushroom-claimed-two-of-my-clowns.46269/
https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/294233-dang-elephant-ear-mushroom-ate-my-picasso-clown-tt/
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2046990

And I am one of those hobbyist that has had a serpent star hunt sleeping fish and consume them. I know a lot of people may be doubtful, but if a large serpent star gets lucky once and is able to catch a sleeping fish it becomes a learned behavior. Can not count the number of threads I have seen regarding repeated missing fish and the hobbyist finally removes the serpent star and low and behold no more missing fish.

What type of serpent starfish did you have?

 

[Tahoe61]

Mine was a Green.

 

[norfolkgarden]

Mine was a Green.

Yup. They are cool, just better in the right 120 gallon tank with 8" fish.

Saw a 2 footer at an LFS up in Massachusetts. Pretty cool, just not a good fit for my current dinner sized fish list.

 

[Amoo]

So for starters, B&W & Orange Clownfish are still just clownfish (Be it Ocellaris orange or Percula Orange), kind of like Africans, Americans, Chinese and Russians are still people. It is EXTREMELY rare that different color morphs of the same species will not accept the other color morph. In your case, literally almost a 0% chance.

In regards to always losing the older one, I do have a theory. As you probably know, the older of the pair always becomes the female and will always become more aggressive. Along with becoming more aggressive, as they become older and closer to breeding time/age they become more territorial. So it is possible, that as your female ages, she starts trying to expand and protect her territory or begins trying to make out a spot for egg laying...etc and ends up falling prey to your predatory starfish?

It's just a theory, but from everything you've stated, possibly the most likely. It's also entirely possible it's all coincidence as 3 is literally statistically insignificant.