Lost all my fish today while in QT

[enorl76]

Setup a new 100g DT about 8 weeks ago. Did the ghost feeding initial cycling. About 5 weeks ago I got a cleanup crew of 10 hermits and 3 snails after tank had cycled and showing signs of diatoms and small bits of algae from the ghost feeding.

Then about 4 weeks ago I Got 4 fish from LFS, a wrasse, Coral beauty angel and two clownfish.

literally a week after getting the fish I notice white spots. Ich, I was pretty sure. In hindsight I suspect the cleanup crew bring the carrier since the LFS said they run copper on the fish displays and low salinity.

Debated which method to deal with it, eradication or management and went with eradication so I bought a 20g during petco sale and setup and cycled a QT using fast cycle dr Tim’s method. Transferred the 4 into QT with same parame as DT and they were fine.

next I started dosing copper slowly over 2 days to 1.75ppm. Then just fed and monitored levels for the next week. The spots disappeared then reappeared. That’s fine mostly expected. Kept up with ammonia levels and minor 10% water changes with proper copper dosing going into the new water before going intoQT. Again the white spots appeared. This is after a week and a half of Hanna verified copper levels of between 1.75-2.0ppm.

next I figure try dropping the salinity by going hypo salinity, I did 10% water changes twice a day with less SG each time bringing the level to 1.010. So then In prep for a 100% water change, I took a small 16qt container put the 4 fishes in to hold them for a final acclimation.

Finished that yesterday then fed them a few hours afterwards where they seemed fine and healthy. Plan was to hold the copper at roughly 1.75ppm and salinity at 1.009.

I wake up this morning and they’re all dead. To add insult to injury, the coralbeautyis literally covered in small white specs again.

So did a postmortem water levels testing where I Checked copper level, Hanna reads 2.12 (which I don’t get), API ph test reads roughly below 8. API ammonia reads 0.25ppm (prob from fish death) and nitrite and nitrates nil.

what the heck did I do wrong? Was it the PH not being 8.2 because of literally so little salt added to the new water?

so totally frustratedright now. Since I’m out of work because of corona BS and spending money on an expensive hobby is not smart right now. Literally considering just ditching the whole thing like I did 8 years ago.

 

[Big G]

Sorry for your losses.

The toxicity of copper increases as the salinity goes lower. I wouldn't dose copper below 1.017-8.

Also a problem as the salinity decreases and the PH gets lower this also increases the toxicity of copper.

 

[Albertan22]

I’ve never heard of running two different treatments for the same disease at once. I’m no expert but I wouldn’t medicate while running hyposalinity.

 

[DeniseAndy]

So sorry for your losses. I do not use copper, so cannot contribute to the issues associated with copper. It is very frustrating especially right now with so many off work and struggling to keep afloat. No pun intended.
If you are really down, maybe step back and think for a bit and make sure your money is going to the right places.
First, your DT should go fallow for 76 days now, so no fish for a long while. Gives you time to come up with a plan and to budget.
Decide if qting fish is for you (it can be time consuming and stressful). I am happy to qt most fish. However, in the future, I may decide to get a larger fish and that I will have pre-qted through somewhere like Humblfish, Marine Collectors, etc.
Good luck with however you decide to progress.

 

[ryewalk84]

It was the combination of hypo with copper. I’d have to go hunting for the articles/science but I know the two should never be done In combination. Sorry you lost your fish.

 

[mike550]

Ugh! Hate to read things like this. Really sorry for you.

Only thing I know about copper is that there seems to be two types (cupramine and chelated copper?). Anyway each one uses a different type of test kit to measure copper levels. May want to confirm if you have the right coppwe / test kit combo

 

[enorl76]

I was using Copper Power, chelated copper. I didnt read anywhere that it measures differently unfortunately.

 

[enorl76]

It was the combination of hypo with copper. I’d have to go hunting for the articles/science but I know the two should never be done In combination. Sorry you lost your fish.

So for ich treatment you decide either hypo or copper treatment? or both but much less copper in the hypo state? This is new as well, I dont see anything about that.

I'm thinking of starting a wiki, so that the treatments can be discussed here, but the wiki would be the go-to for knowledge. There's so much locked up in having to read posts and comments and threads and forums for days and days and days without a good summary of treatments. Sometimes the relevant posts are stickied, which helps but then vast knowledge is locked away in seemingly endless comments on threads.

 

[Piranhapat]

What happen the copper killed bacteria causing your ammonia to kill the fish.

 

[DeniseAndy]

These threads, stickies, are great. Read through them for future qt process. https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/fish-disease-treatment-and-diagnosis.771/

 

[mike550]

I was using Copper Power, chelated copper. I didnt read anywhere that it measures differently unfortunately.

This probably isn’t the perfect thread to directly answer the question but should be very helpful. This is from the thread

• Cupramine can be accurately tested using either the Seachem or Salifert copper test kit.
• But for Coppersafe/Copper Power, you will need to use the Hanna Colorimeter to test. The API copper test kit can no longer be trusted

Chelated copper is chelated copper

So, in an effort to help clear up this whole chelated copper mess, I reached out to the mfg of Copper Power about their 2.5ppm recommendation: ME: Hi Alice - I have one further question, if you don’t mind. Is it absolutely necessary to treat with Copper Power at 2.5 ppm? That seems a bit on...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Albertan22]

So for ich treatment you decide either hypo or copper treatment? or both but much less copper in the hypo state? This is new as well, I dont see anything about that.

I'm thinking of starting a wiki, so that the treatments can be discussed here, but the wiki would be the go-to for knowledge. There's so much locked up in having to read posts and comments and threads and forums for days and days and days without a good summary of treatments. Sometimes the relevant posts are stickied, which helps but then vast knowledge is locked away in seemingly endless comments on threads.

These threads are great for that wiki type info you’re talking about:

Treatment Options Index

This thread contains links to useful treatment options. Please click on the blue links below for more info. :) Treatment Options 102 provides a brief rundown of most medications & treatments. Acriflavine is a first aid antiseptic. Antibiotics treats bacterial infections. Chloroquine...

www.reef2reef.com

Fish Disease Index

This thread contains links to commonly encountered saltwater fish diseases. Please click on the blue links below for more info. :) Fish Diseases 101 provides a brief rundown of both common and not so common diseases. Bacterial Infections Black Ich (turbellarians) Brooklynella (clownfish...

www.reef2reef.com

Doing reduced copper is useless, copper needs to be at the therapeutic level otherwise it just suppresses symptoms rather than eradicate the parasite. Pick one method or the other. A doctor wouldn’t typically prescribe two antibiotics for the same illness. They weigh the pros and cons then pick one of the several available and proceed.