Lost another Copperband...

[i cant think]

I’m not in America so we don’t have crappy fish stores like Petco. I have lfs’s that specialise and know what they are doing, alright yes we have a chain similar to pet o and they are terribly known for causing outbreaks of ich. I find that even QT can’t combat velvet unless the fish actually has it. IMHO, every tank has ich or velvet it just waits for a fish to be at its weakest to shine, I am currently doing just fine with no QT on most of my fish. Some of my fish may have been through different forms of QT (some went through copper, others went through deworming and some didn’t go through anything at all). I take risks many think don’t work, just look at my stocking list and wrasse people will either cringe or be shocked that it works.
Again with the QT:
I don’t think it works, every tank will have ich or some illness that is just waiting for a fish to stress way too much. In my eyes, a stressed fish is an ill fish but a not stressed fish is a healthy fish.
We keep difficult to keep fish because if people weren’t having success we wouldn’t have such a good supply of fish like we have now.
Another reason someone may not have QT:
MONEY. These tanks cost money and not everyone has the room or the money for 2 tanks. I have an 18” cube that is currently being used as an observation tank for two wrasse, I would rather have them straight into the DT however they are too small. The other thing with money is equipment and water, I spent about £35-£75 a week on water (Yes there is often other things mixed in). I have never done QT and have only ever gone against a disease once and that was with a healthy fish (He is back to normal now).
The other thing is, over here we don’t have the luxury of America and yes some LFS’s do pre QT but actually very few do and we have almost nobody that ships across country. It’s not me having no patience, it’s me having no other option but to throw the fish into the DT (Infact most UK reefers have to do this unless you want to use copper based medication which IMO isn’t too gods for the fish).

This is why I don’t do QT. It may be different for others however, I would rather have two reefs over one DT in the main room and one tank in my room just sitting there fishless all the time, especially since I spend most of my time in my room watching how the fish behave in captivity.

 

[costaricareef]

To the OP: get yourself a 10-20gallon QT and follow the recommendations on here on how to do it successfully. It will save you tons of time, money, frustration and probably many fish's lives. My opinion.

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

Qt imo Is the cheapest option long term.

I agree with you, sure, but my original point (maybe too blunt) was that if you can't afford QT you probably can't afford to successfully keep a saltwater tank period. Unless your living in a tiny home what other reason would there be for not being able to have a separate QT other than a lack of patience or desire. Most people skipping QT don't becuase they can't but because they simply can't wait to put the new fish in with the rest.

Many people live in apartments, and many apartments stipulate One fish tank if they are allowed at all. Others rent rooms, A lot of others have wives/husbands who don't want tanks all over the freaking house.

I don't take issue with the bluntness, I live in that Lane, I take issue with the concept. There are solutions to Most problems that don't include throwing in the towel or telling someone This hobby isn't for them.

This can be an expensive hobby. That doesn't mean people with limited resources shouldn't try. I've seen very successful HOB, no ATO black box using reefers.

Based on the 17 to QT or not to QT threads here a week. I don't think the reason people don't quarantine by and large is because they don't want to Wait. I think a lot of educated people don't quarantine because they believe there is a better way. That doesn't align with my view and it doesn't line with yours It sounds like, But you need to remember your opinion is not the only one in this hobby. There are literally hundreds of good reef keepers on this board that do not quarantine fish or coral. The best thing for you isn't the best thing for everyone.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

There is a good supply of fish because there are people in this world that don’t care about what happens to the animal. They will catch it, people will pay money for it and then it will die. Case in point is the OP who paid for 3 copperband fish.

This is an expensive hobby. A QT is one of the least expensive aspects of this hobby. It’s not about money. It’s about the extra effort and patience.

There are also reputable suppliers that quarantine before selling. That is also a good option for those who don’t want to or can’t quarantine.

 

[jtf74]

Many people live in apartments, and many apartments stipulate One fish tank if they are allowed at all. Others rent rooms, A lot of others have wives/husbands who don't want tanks all over the freaking house.

I don't take issue with the bluntness, I live in that Lane, I take issue with the concept. There are solutions to Most problems that don't include throwing in the towel or telling someone This hobby isn't for them.

This can be an expensive hobby. That doesn't mean people with limited resources shouldn't try. I've seen very successful HOB, no ATO black box using reefers.

Based on the 17 to QT or not to QT threads here a week. I don't think the reason people don't quarantine by and large is because they don't want to Wait. I think a lot of educated people don't quarantine because they believe there is a better way. That doesn't align with my view and it doesn't line with yours It sounds like, But you need to remember your opinion is not the only one in this hobby. There are literally hundreds of good reef keepers on this board that do not quarantine fish or coral. The best thing for you isn't the best thing for everyone.

Its not about what's best for me. Whats best for the fish?

 

[jtf74]

I’m not in America so we don’t have crappy fish stores like Petco. I have lfs’s that specialise and know what they are doing, alright yes we have a chain similar to pet o and they are terribly known for causing outbreaks of ich. I find that even QT can’t combat velvet unless the fish actually has it. IMHO, every tank has ich or velvet it just waits for a fish to be at its weakest to shine, I am currently doing just fine with no QT on most of my fish. Some of my fish may have been through different forms of QT (some went through copper, others went through deworming and some didn’t go through anything at all). I take risks many think don’t work, just look at my stocking list and wrasse people will either cringe or be shocked that it works.
Again with the QT:
I don’t think it works, every tank will have ich or some illness that is just waiting for a fish to stress way too much. In my eyes, a stressed fish is an ill fish but a not stressed fish is a healthy fish.
We keep difficult to keep fish because if people weren’t having success we wouldn’t have such a good supply of fish like we have now.
Another reason someone may not have QT:
MONEY. These tanks cost money and not everyone has the room or the money for 2 tanks. I have an 18” cube that is currently being used as an observation tank for two wrasse, I would rather have them straight into the DT however they are too small. The other thing with money is equipment and water, I spent about £35-£75 a week on water (Yes there is often other things mixed in). I have never done QT and have only ever gone against a disease once and that was with a healthy fish (He is back to normal now).
The other thing is, over here we don’t have the luxury of America and yes some LFS’s do pre QT but actually very few do and we have almost nobody that ships across country. It’s not me having no patience, it’s me having no other option but to throw the fish into the DT (Infact most UK reefers have to do this unless you want to use copper based medication which IMO isn’t too gods for the fish).

This is why I don’t do QT. It may be different for others however, I would rather have two reefs over one DT in the main room and one tank in my room just sitting there fishless all the time, especially since I spend most of my time in my room watching how the fish behave in captivity.

Disagree. Tank going for 7 plus years. Multiple tangs (yellow, hippo, powder brown), copperband, two dwarf angels, maroon clown pair, foxface, gramma, chromis, blenny. Never seen a disease show up after a lengthy QT.

 

[i cant think]

This is an expensive hobby. A QT is one of the least expensive aspects of this hobby. It’s not about money. It’s about the extra effort and patience.

This is where I disagree with you, a QT tank needs more than a reef. A DT/Reef tank just needs a weekly water change, dose of Mg/Kh/Ca, a decent filter depending on if you want the sump or not. A QT tank needs the medications for just about every disease known to fish, rock, sand (If you want it), a decent filter ect… yes, what’s best for the fish but what’s best for the fish is getting them into the DT in the least stressing way possible and IMHO that’s straight into the DT with acclimation but that’s just how I do it (Yes it’s risky with such a thin slime coated fish in the tank I know). Butterflyfish, Angelfish and Wrasse all have thick slime coats so these guys are stronger against disease compared to tangs, idols and other “expert” only fish. But then that adds to the question, what differs an expert from an intermediate fish keeper? How many scientific names you know? How many fish you’ve kept and what species? How long you’ve been in the hobby?

 

[jtf74]

This is where I disagree with you, a QT tank needs more than a reef. A DT/Reef tank just needs a weekly water change, dose of Mg/Kh/Ca, a decent filter depending on if you want the sump or not. A QT tank needs the medications for just about every disease known to fish, rock, sand (If you want it), a decent filter ect… yes, what’s best for the fish but what’s best for the fish is getting them into the DT in the least stressing way possible and IMHO that’s straight into the DT with acclimation but that’s just how I do it (Yes it’s risky with such a thin slime coated fish in the tank I know). Butterflyfish, Angelfish and Wrasse all have thick slime coats so these guys are stronger against disease compared to tangs, idols and other “expert” only fish. But then that adds to the question, what differs an expert from an intermediate fish keeper? How many scientific names you know? How many fish you’ve kept and what species? How long you’ve been in the hobby?

I don't pre-medicate so no stress. My cbb di well because it didn't go into Dt and have to compete for food.

 

[costaricareef]

In my opinion, those that do not quarantine (and are successful, meaning no ich, no velvet, no Brook, etc.) have been lucky. They are willing to accept a higher level of risk. Those that do quarantine correctly, take that level of risk down and IMO, maximize the odds for success. What I think is bad, is very experienced reefers, telling begginers on this board "don't worry about it, I'ven been in this for 47 years, 27 tanks, never quarantined and never had an issue". There are two very big problems with this: 1) it's probably not true (the odds juts don't add up) and 2) you are VERY experienced; a beginner, cannot and should not, accept that level of risk because he does not have the knowledge or the tools to mitigate that risk and manage it once it comes to pass. Again, my opinion, being in this hobby for 21 years.

 

[i cant think]

I don't pre-medicate so no stress.

I use my nano as an observation tank for the fish small enough but I have never found an illness appear so I don’t find QT to be NEEDED all the time unless the fish has undergone extreme stress. I have had angelfish get ich just from being under stress after going through extensive QT.

Disagree. Tank going for 7 plus years. Multiple tangs (yellow, hippo, powder brown), copperband, two dwarf angels, maroon clown pair, foxface, gramma, chromis, blenny. Never seen a disease show up after a lengthy QT.

I find this to be more a personal experience, I have seen it with several fish where they have undergone extreme stress after extensive QT and gain ich/velvet. You have 3 thinner slime coat fish and the rest are all thick slime coated fish. Your tank isn’t all thin slime coated fish which is probably why you haven’t seen ich yet.

Even when I was classed as a beginner I never did QT, I have never QTed at all (Even now). I prefer to throw fish into the DT and have people scream at me later, I have many “Sensitive” fish such as a Radiant wrasse, 3 fairy wrasse (2 male Lubbock’s), a Blue star leopard wrasse and they are all thriving in my care even without QT. The radiant is going on almost 2 years and the others are coming close to 1.5 years. I agree a beginner should remember QT can be important but should also know, fish will naturally get ill just like how we naturally get ill. If that fish is healthy and eating then yes that fish will fight it off.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

This is where I disagree with you, a QT tank needs more than a reef. A DT/Reef tank just needs a weekly water change, dose of Mg/Kh/Ca, a decent filter depending on if you want the sump or not. A QT tank needs the medications for just about every disease known to fish, rock, sand (If you want it), a decent filter ect… yes, what’s best for the fish but what’s best for the fish is getting them into the DT in the least stressing way possible and IMHO that’s straight into the DT with acclimation but that’s just how I do it (Yes it’s risky with such a thin slime coated fish in the tank I know). Butterflyfish, Angelfish and Wrasse all have thick slime coats so these guys are stronger against disease compared to tangs, idols and other “expert” only fish. But then that adds to the question, what differs an expert from an intermediate fish keeper? How many scientific names you know? How many fish you’ve kept and what species? How long you’ve been in the hobby?

A QT is a lot of work. I agree. I’m running two of them as we speak.

I think there are two issues here:

1. Should we quarantine or not

2. Should we be buying hard to keep fish, especially when there has been more than one failure.

For the first one I would say that one school things a QT is essential (that’s the one I belong to) and the second says it is not. At the end of the day it doesn’t matter which one we belong to as long as the end result is the same: Healthy livestock and tanks.

As for the second one, some fish are hardy and do well in captivity, some are not and have no place in captivity unless the person/institution is highly advanced and able to meet their needs. If you refer to “the consciouncios marine aquarist” you can get a good idea of which is which.

Lastly with respect to scientific names, I know two: Nemo and Dory. I hope that counts

 

[i cant think]

A QT is a lot of work. I agree. I’m running two of them as we speak.

I think there are two issues here:

1. Should we quarantine or not

2. Should we be buying hard to keep fish, especially when there has been more than one failure.

For the first one I would say that one school things a QT is essential (that’s the one I belong to) and the second says it is not. At the end of the day it doesn’t matter which one we belong to as long as the end result is the same: Healthy livestock and tanks.

As for the second one, some fish are hardy and do well in captivity, some are not and have no place in captivity unless the person/institution is highly advanced and able to meet their needs. If you refer to “the consciouncios marine aquarist” you can get a good idea of which is which.

Lastly with respect to scientific names, I know two: Nemo and Dory. I hope that counts

IMHO, if we didn’t take fish from the wild would we really have the captive bred fish we have today? No, they are brought in from the wild and bred down. My dream is to have captive bread butterflyfish and the harder fish like idols, but even the clownfish we know today used to be brought in from the wild (and some still are). As said above, QT is a highly debated topic and many have success without it (Including me) and others don’t.
As for scientific names haha, if we count memo and dory as them then we know two already! But really, a scientific name can be much better than a common name because several fish get called the same name Eventhough they’re several seperate species.

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

Its not about what's best for me. Whats best for the fish?

What is best for the fish (Qt or Not) is also a highly debated topic and will probably never be settled.

 

[ApoIsland]

In the case of the CBB - If you are not experienced in keeping a QT tank, it would be much better to clear out some space in the sump. My first attempt was unsuccessful as I believe I did not have adequate filtration setup in QT as the CBB requires a lot of food. My next 3 attempts were all successful when I started them directly in the sump and then moved to the display after I had them trained on mysis.

If your LFS water is low in salinity you can also bring your tank water down close to that a couple days prior and then gradually bring it up over a couple days after the fish is in. Unless you have extremely finicky corals they will not care about a slight 3 or 4 day drop in salinity.

 

[jtf74]

I use my nano as an observation tank for the fish small enough but I have never found an illness appear so I don’t find QT to be NEEDED all the time unless the fish has undergone extreme stress. I have had angelfish get ich just from being under stress after going through extensive QT.

I find this to be more a personal experience, I have seen it with several fish where they have undergone extreme stress after extensive QT and gain ich/velvet. You have 3 thinner slime coat fish and the rest are all thick slime coated fish. Your tank isn’t all thin slime coated fish which is probably why you haven’t seen ich yet.

Even when I was classed as a beginner I never did QT, I have never QTed at all (Even now). I prefer to throw fish into the DT and have people scream at me later, I have many “Sensitive” fish such as a Radiant wrasse, 3 fairy wrasse (2 male Lubbock’s), a Blue star leopard wrasse and they are all thriving in my care even without QT. The radiant is going on almost 2 years and the others are coming close to 1.5 years. I agree a beginner should remember QT can be important but should also know, fish will naturally get ill just like how we naturally get ill. If that fish is healthy and eating then yes that fish will fight it off.

I do agree with you re qt stress causing problems that's why I don't pre-medicate and use a bacterially established fallow QT w/ live rock and pods heater and skimmer. If I need to treat because I have observed some disease then I've lost a few pounds of live rock and have to restart the setup. So it doesn't have to be that difficult, but it at least gives the fish time to not be harassed by other fish and lets you focus on getting it feeding and gives you time to observe it before taking the risk. I've spent too much on fish myself to take that risk, not to mention would probably just give up the hobby if I killed my cbb because I added a sick fish.

Hopefully this QT method won't bring on a whole other debate!

What is best for the fish (Qt or Not) is also a highly debated topic and will probably never be settled.

I can only speak from my experience. Zero fish losses in 7 years since my latest setup began and I QT. Many losses when I was in my 20's and didn't QT.

 

[nicksreefs]

I have read the thread here and first up I'm newish to reefing/ the salt world. I am however experienced in freshwater as a breeder, have a degree in zoology so am not coming in blind. I have had this discussion more times than I've ever wanted or care to mention over the years and would like to add the below:

1. Diseases & parasites can live through treatments just as people can survive theoretically impossible conditions.
2. Animals can thrive in one environment but fail in another which is almost identical.
3. What stresses one individual in a population may not stress another.
4. Populations share many characteristics (this is how we classify them) but remember no two individuals are identical and will not respond in the same way.

While I would suggest that running a QT displays that you care, in a tangible, bricks and mortar sense. I would not suggest that not running a QT means that you don't care or are callous, it is merely a different approach.

Fundamentally neither approach will guarantee a successful end result, mother nature will do what she does and part of her is sadly disease.

I wont offer any advice on what to do going forward, I will however wish for you and the fish in your care success and happiness in the future.

 

[Borg]

lost my coppeband this morning.
found him wrapped around my mp40. 2 month qt and 1 week in the big house he wasn't strong enough.

I guess the flow was to much.

 

[jtf74]

lost my coppeband this morning.
found him wrapped around my mp40. 2 month qt and 1 week in the big house he wasn't strong enough.

I guess the flow was to much.

Sorry to hear. Was he eating well in QT? Doubt it was the flow.

 

[piranhaman00]

Took way too long to QT, temp match 15 mins and drop in tank

 

[SashimiTurtle]

Hi,

I'm really bummed out...

3rd try on a Copperband.

This one was looking healthy and somewhat fat at the LFS. It ate an amphipod before my eyes.

Brought it back home, acclimated it for 2 hours by putting water in the bag every 15 minutes.

Put it straight in my 48" display tank.

It looked rattled and was staying in a corner, but I figured it would take a day or 2 before it would be used to its new tank.

This morning, less than 24 hours later, it's laying on its side at the bottom of the tank, still breathing but almost dead.

Everyone else in the tank is happy, as usual.

No agressive tank mate.

Did I do something wrong, or I just picked a fish that was already condemned?

I never drip acclimate fish... ammonia builds up in those bags stupid fast but isn't toxic until you open it. With a fish a sensitive as a CBB all it takes is a little bit of ammonia and they're toast. I temp acclimate all my fish in a closed bag so ammonium cannot get oxidized into ammonia and then immediately remove the fish from the bag and place in the tank.

I have given up on CBBs. I had a healthy one for close to a year, went on vacation for a week and when I returned it looked half dead despite having someone feed my tank, and didn't last but a few more days. I've tried 2 more times with individuals that looked healthy in the store but perished quickly after bringing them home.

Honestly, I believe them to be a fish best left in the wild.