Low Alkalinity_Urgent help

[nly04]

I have a 120g DT and 50g sump. I do 20% water change every two weeks (I used Microbe-lift reef slat). Last week I notice all the sudden my alkalinity drop to 4.5, I started dose 30ML/day (B-ionic part 1 Alkalinity) since last Sunday and I was able to get it up to 7.2-7.4 on Wednesday but it stuck at 7.4 max since. I run dual reactor (GFO/Carbon) in my system. My other Calcium 440, Mag 1350 seem stable while I dosing Alkalinity. What happen? Should I continues to dose 30Ml/day until it reach 9 (my goal for Alkalinity is 9).

 

[jgraz]

At 7.2-7.4 you alk is just fine. I keep mine at around 7 give or take. Your alk/cal/mag is pretty well balanced at those numbers. How heavily stocked coral wise are you. Before I started dosing my alk dropped to 4 in my SPS heavy system with no ill effects before I noticed. That's when I started dosing. I actually target 7dkh, 420 cal, and 1350 mag and know that my numbers may stray slightly from one day to the next.

 

[Reefing Madness]

Nothing wrong with 7.4. I keep mine at 7. Thats where natural Sea Water is at also. As far as we've come with Reefing, someone needs to revise that 8-12dKH range, its pretty easy to keep our systems at 7 now.

 

[nly04]

At 7.2-7.4 you alk is just fine. I keep mine at around 7 give or take. Your alk/cal/mag is pretty well balanced at those numbers. How heavily stocked coral wise are you. Before I started dosing my alk dropped to 4 in my SPS heavy system with no ill effects before I noticed. That's when I started dosing. I actually target 7dkh, 420 cal, and 1350 mag and know that my numbers may stray slightly from one day to the next.

Thank you bro, it good to know and make me less worry. I dont have much coral in my tank, I lost a moti while trying to dose up Alkalinity.

Nothing wrong with 7.4. I keep mine at 7. Thats where natural Sea Water is at also. As far as we've come with Reefing, someone needs to revise that 8-12dKH range, its pretty easy to keep our systems at 7 now.

Thanks,

 

[Kimberlee]

Whats your PH? I know if my PH gets low I have a hard time keeping my ALK stable, so that would be my first guess. And yeah 7 is great if the # is stable there.

 

[mike007]

Most experieced reefkeepers do keep alk. close to 7dkh. When you get in the higher ranges you might start seeing sps corals bleaching.

 

[nly04]

Whats your PH? I know if my PH gets low I have a hard time keeping my ALK stable, so that would be my first guess. And yeah 7 is great if the # is stable there.

My PH very stable at 8

Most experieced reefkeepers do keep alk. close to 7dkh. When you get in the higher ranges you might start seeing sps corals bleaching.

really? Most people I asked in my area they told me the ideal is 9.3 that why I try to get my Alkalinity to 9. Thx

 

[mcarroll]

Most experieced reefkeepers do keep alk. close to 7dkh. When you get in the higher ranges you might start seeing sps corals bleaching.

While there is certainly nothing wrong with maintaining natural seawater levels, the benefits of elevating some of them are well known. I'm not sure how true the above quote is. Who's keeping that list of experience reefers first of all? This experienced reefer and most of the folks he knows personally shoot for 8-12 dKH. Also, bleaching is not what's usually associated with the problem you're referring to - it's usually called burnt tips where it apparently appears to some as if the growth edge of skeleton of the coral has outgrown the flesh.

The ones who have trouble at elevated levels are the ones carbon dosing or with otherwise depressed pH (which is often high CO2). (Or people who have a spike vs maintaining high alkalinity.) Stay away from overstocking and there's no need for carbon dosing. Resolve CO2 issues and see your troubles disappear.

No offense to anyone, but it's actually a little funny to see so many people associate problems to something like keeping alkalinity between 8-12 dKH that has worked for so many people for so long. It's like group amnesia of the past and we don't realize what changed in the present to create this new situation. Carbonate chemistry did not change, but widespread use of GFO and carbon dosing (among other things) did.

I can't prove it yet, but I think our common alkalinity test kits are being thrown off by these (typically) low pH, carbon-loaded tanks. The indicator dyes depend on specific starting and ending pH levels for their color change....too low a starting pH (we're expecting 8.3 or so) and you get a false low reading...which could easily lead one to unknowingly overdose. You can see in the charts here that CO2 and its by-products have a huge effect on on pH, so I think this is plausible...maybe even probable. Need to experiment a bit to find out for sure though.* If you look up results from folks who try keeping alk >12dKH on purpose, the results are often pretty similar to burnt tips. (Strangely, some people have no problems with alk even as high as 15 dKH.) It's too bad that it's not easier/cheaper to test directly for CO2 in seawater.

-Matt

* Anyone with a low-pH, carbon dosed tank want to run a few tests to help out? Just need to take a sample (1 cup or so) of tank water, test alk and pH. Aerate the sample of water with air from outdoors for an hour. Retest pH and alkalinity. (See also the section of that linked page titled "The Aeration Test".) Then PM me your before and after results!

 

[Reefing Madness]

While there is certainly nothing wrong with maintaining natural seawater levels, the benefits of elevating some of them are well known. I'm not sure how true the above quote is. Who's keeping that list of experience reefers first of all? This experienced reefer and most of the folks he knows personally shoot for 8-12 dKH. Also, bleaching is not what's usually associated with the problem you're referring to - it's usually called burnt tips where it apparently appears to some as if the growth edge of skeleton of the coral has outgrown the flesh.

The ones who have trouble at elevated levels are the ones carbon dosing or with otherwise depressed pH (which is often high CO2). (Or people who have a spike vs maintaining high alkalinity.) Stay away from overstocking and there's no need for carbon dosing. Resolve CO2 issues and see your troubles disappear.

No offense to anyone, but it's actually a little funny to see so many people associate problems to something like keeping alkalinity between 8-12 dKH that has worked for so many people for so long. It's like group amnesia of the past and we don't realize what changed in the present to create this new situation. Carbonate chemistry did not change, but widespread use of GFO and carbon dosing (among other things) did.

I can't prove it yet, but I think our common alkalinity test kits are being thrown off by these (typically) low pH, carbon-loaded tanks. The indicator dyes depend on specific starting and ending pH levels for their color change....too low a starting pH (we're expecting 8.3 or so) and you get a false low reading...which could easily lead one to unknowingly overdose. You can see in the charts here that CO2 and its by-products have a huge effect on on pH, so I think this is plausible...maybe even probable. Need to experiment a bit to find out for sure though.* If you look up results from folks who try keeping alk >12dKH on purpose, the results are often pretty similar to burnt tips. (Strangely, some people have no problems with alk even as high as 15 dKH.) It's too bad that it's not easier/cheaper to test directly for CO2 in seawater.

-Matt

* Anyone with a low-pH, carbon dosed tank want to run a few tests to help out? Just need to take a sample (1 cup or so) of tank water, test alk and pH. Aerate the sample of water with air from outdoors for an hour. Retest pH and alkalinity. (See also the section of that linked page titled "The Aeration Test".) Then PM me your before and after results!

Its actually Randal Farley-Holmes who suggests its quite fine to run our systems at 7dKH. I don't tend to argue to much with this guy.
Using 7dKH as being ok is not for eveyone, thus the reason why 8-12 is used, but Randal drops it and says 7-11 should be the norm. THat 8-12 is an old norm, and whould be replaced with todays technology, just like the old days when eveyone thought it wouldn't get any better than Halides. Things change in this hobby, for the better, and most things are to make it easier to maintain. This I think is the same for dKH.
Alkalinity Discussion

 

[mike007]

Even though NSW has an alkalinity range of 3.0 meq/l or 8.0 - 8.5 dKH, what range, either in meq/l or dKH is required for good maintenance of closed systems? Definitely higher is the answer for fish-only systems, simply because the closed system is just that with more generally going on chemically in its volume of water than in a similar volume in the wild. As to reef systems, most knowledgeable and well-experienced aquarists prefer 2.5 - 3.5 meq/l (7 - 10 dKH). As for those fish-only systems, 3 - 6 meq/l (8 to 17 dKH) will suffice. Keep in mind fish-only systems have a greater propensity for higher dissolved carbon dioxide levels since respiration from fish and bacteria tend to be higher than in reef systems. Therefore, they are better maintained at slightly higher alkalinity levels, with their calcium levels usually of little importance. Bob Goemans Saltwater corner article.

 

[Reefing Madness]

Even though NSW has an alkalinity range of 3.0 meq/l or 8.0 - 8.5 dKH, what range, either in meq/l or dKH is required for good maintenance of closed systems? Definitely higher is the answer for fish-only systems, simply because the closed system is just that with more generally going on chemically in its volume of water than in a similar volume in the wild. As to reef systems, most knowledgeable and well-experienced aquarists prefer 2.5 - 3.5 meq/l (7 - 10 dKH). As for those fish-only systems, 3 - 6 meq/l (8 to 17 dKH) will suffice. Keep in mind fish-only systems have a greater propensity for higher dissolved carbon dioxide levels since respiration from fish and bacteria tend to be higher than in reef systems. Therefore, they are better maintained at slightly higher alkalinity levels, with their calcium levels usually of little importance. Bob Goemans Saltwater corner article.

 

[mcarroll]

Its actually Randal Farley-Holmes who suggests its quite fine to run our systems at 7dKH. I don't tend to argue to much with this guy.
Using 7dKH as being ok is not for eveyone, thus the reason why 8-12 is used, but Randal drops it and says 7-11 should be the norm. THat 8-12 is an old norm, and whould be replaced with todays technology, just like the old days when eveyone thought it wouldn't get any better than Halides. Things change in this hobby, for the better, and most things are to make it easier to maintain. This I think is the same for dKH.
Alkalinity Discussion

Randy doesn't post in that thread at all - only his hit crew, And everyone there who does post seems to like dKH around 10-11. (And plz no more links to over there. LOL)

Again, since carbonate chemistry hasn't changed, so to with any risks or benefits. Technology can't change this.

And FWIW the oceans of the world are far from uniform 7 dKH, so even that is a synthetic target. It is not automatically the best target.

Randy has lots of articles that talk about alkalinity - this is probably more interesting: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/2/chemistry#section-9

-Matt

 

[jedimasterben]

(Strangely, some people have no problems with alk even as high as 15 dKH.)

The 'Blu coral' method involves very high light, very high flow, and very high water parameters - calcium approaching 500ppm, alk over 12dKH, and mag over 1500ppm. The only way that it works, however, is with heavily increased feeding. I've seen tanks that run a dKH over 16 using this method. Measured growth is unreal (34cm+ yearly in Acropora), and color is some of the best I've ever seen.

 

[mcarroll]

'Blu coral' sounds like a car wax. LOL I've seen you post about that before - any idea what the name is from?

-Matt

 

[jedimasterben]

LOL!

It is a system used mostly in Italy as a modified version of the Berlin system. There are threads on just about every forum about it.

 

[mcarroll]

The hobby has a knack for goofy brand names - just curious about this one! You are the first I've heard about it, but I mostly hang out here. Used to hang out at the old place if you know what I mean, but they only know one thing there - never saw a mention of this method.

-Matt

 

[jedimasterben]

The hobby has a knack for goofy brand names - just curious about this one! You are the first I've heard about it, but I mostly hang out here. Used to hang out at the old place if you know what I mean, but they only know one thing there - never saw a mention of this method.

-Matt

I go there mostly for some advanced reading on certain things - I've been banned there before for mentioning that cool white LEDs lead to poor non-fluorescent coloration. The Cree Cool White Cult over there runs DEEP! LOL

A little reading: Blue Coral Method That has the recipe for pappone (which is what sets it apart from Berlin systems) and some talk, and I think it's also got a link to the RC thread on the Italian tanks. They're wicked, and the growth they have is unreal. 400w halides, giant skimmers, more flow than I thought possible LOL

 

[mcarroll]

Interesting.

Leave out their optional magic bullet (hormones) and it sounds like traditional Berlin method + feeding (e.g.) Rod's Food. Most of their numbers don't seem far off from the traditional 420/4.0/1350, so I don't see them as a major distinction.

My system receives almost no food for its size (only three tiny barnacle Blennies in 100 gallons) compared to the run of the mill, so maybe dosing aminos is something I will consider experimenting with.

-Matt