Low PH, advice?

reeferfoxx · Apr 13, 2016

Jakepen said:
What do you mean, it should have read 7.8 than?

Math.

So I've google'd your salt and I cannot find what your salts water parameters should be, or more specifically, pH, and at what salinity.

Went to BRS ... http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/hw-marinemix-reefer-salt-mix.html
Then went to HW-Wiegant ... http://www.hw-wiegandt.de/hw-marinemix-reefereng.html

Jakepen · Apr 13, 2016

reeferfoxx said:
Math.

So I've google'd your salt and I cannot find what your salts water parameters should be, or more specifically, pH, and at what salinity.

Went to BRS ... http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/hw-marinemix-reefer-salt-mix.html
Then went to HW-Wiegant ... http://www.hw-wiegandt.de/hw-marinemix-reefereng.html

Math, never my strongest subject. Doesn't really give a specific ph range, unless I'm missing it?

reeferfoxx · Apr 13, 2016

Jakepen said:
Doesn't really give a specific ph range, unless I'm missing it?

I can't find it either.. I don't know what to say. I don't have much to go off of. Maybe start a new thread and ask for advice from other HW Wiegant reefer's. I went to my salts manufacturer website, and they have stated everything for me.
http://www.tropic-marin.com/meersalze/pro-reef-meersalz/?lang=en

Jakepen · Apr 13, 2016

I've just heard many good things about HW, wanted to give them a try. I'll ask around. Thanks for taking the time to help me out, still going to get a test kit tomorrow.

NeptuneGarden · Apr 13, 2016

UGH !..... pH is SIMPLE

pH is 2 things and 2 things ONLY
KH and Co2. Salt blend has NOTHING to do with pH, beyond the amount of KH it adds.

Do NOT add buffers. Those products should not even be sold.

In order to reach a pH of 8 all Co2 must be kept degassed from the water column

Your live stock and algae "breath" out a lot of Co2.
You can see how much, or rather how little Co2 it takes to effect pH by the normal lights-on / lights-off swings in pH

If the pH is too low, and your KH is correct, then you have too much Co2 in your water column.
There are any number of ways to solve that problem. More surface agitation, better home ventilation, Co2 scrubbers on the skimmer intake, ect. ect.

I would also not worry about 7.8 pH. It's not ideal, but not dangerous. 8ph +/- 0.2 either way is fine (IMO) ...... AS LONG AS IT IS CONSISTENT
Shoot for consistency before trying to achieve some magic set in stone pH number

Just re-read you original post ..... 7.6 is a bit low. Get the Co2 out of the water.

reeferfoxx · Apr 13, 2016

NeptuneGarden said:
UGH !..... pH is SIMPLE

He's on a new tank. Fresh cycle. no fish or corals yet.

reeferfoxx · Apr 13, 2016

NeptuneGarden said:
Just re-read you original post ..... 7.6 is a bit low. Get the Co2 out of the water.

He's posted a lot. Check out the OP of his other thread https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/when-is-the-right-time-to-add-coral.243777/#post-2859069

NeptuneGarden · Apr 13, 2016

reeferfoxx said:
He's on a new tank. Fresh cycle. no fish or corals yet.

Same rules apply.
Co2 is coming from somewhere ..........

People don't realize how much this effects pH with the types of closed eco-systems we run

It only takes 7ppm to drop the pH from 8.0 to 7.6 in water with a KH of 8-9
and you have to get it down to 2ppm or less to achieve 8.

reeferfoxx · Apr 13, 2016

NeptuneGarden said:
Same rules apply.
Co2 is coming from somewhere ..........

People don't realize how much this effects pH with the types of closed eco-systems we run

It only takes 7ppm to drop the pH from 8.0 to 7.6 in water with a KH of 8-9
and you have to get it down to 2ppm or less to achieve 8.

The co2 levels you are talking about seem drastic compared to the amount of time since this tank was erected. I've had my co2 gas freshwater setup in the same room for 6 months as my reef tank and never experienced a KH dip. That said, i knew the risks before hand. Plus he has stated the 50% water change without any change and he is running a protein skimmer.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 13, 2016

FWIW, the ONLY cause of low pH when alkalinity is normal to high is excess CO2 in the water, and nearly all the time that is driven by CO2 in the room air used to aerate the tank. Water changes are almost never a suitable way to deal with pH issues for this reason.

Jakepen · Apr 13, 2016

Ordered some lime soda, going to build a co2 scrubber. This weekend should be able to open up some windows as well. If all else fails, I'll look into kalkwaser

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 13, 2016

NeptuneGarden said:
Same rules apply.
Co2 is coming from somewhere ..........

People don't realize how much this effects pH with the types of closed eco-systems we run

It only takes 7ppm to drop the pH from 8.0 to 7.6 in water with a KH of 8-9
and you have to get it down to 2ppm or less to achieve 8.

Just to be clear, that graph has no direct application for seawater.

NeptuneGarden · Apr 13, 2016

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
Just to be clear, that graph has no direct application for seawater.

Yeah, it's just used as a prop to show the correlation of KH-Co2-pH.

The correlation is better known and understood in the freshwater world since they purposely inject Co2 into the tank.

reeferfoxx · Apr 13, 2016

NeptuneGarden said:
Yeah, it's just used as a prop to show the correlation of KH-Co2-pH.

The correlation is better known and understood in the freshwater world since they purposely inject Co2 into the tank.

I understood it.

All i am saying is his only source of pH testing is the pin point probe for RKL. I suppose if it were me, i would get other sources to verify my probe was correct. I had a eye piece refractometer that always showed correct numbers with calibration solutions. But something was always off. Changed to the milwaukee, fou d out the eye piece refract was off by 3ppm and the calibration solution was actually off by 1ppm, verified by lfs.

Not saying its always the case, I'm just not convinced. FWIW, I'm learning a lot here in more ways than one.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 13, 2016

In seawater, a doubling of the CO2 level causes about a 0.3 pH unit drop in pH.

I show that sort of graph here from one of my pH articles

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 13, 2016

This article discusses pH effects in detail:

http://www.reefedition.com/ph-and-the-reef-aquarium/

NeptuneGarden · Apr 13, 2016

reeferfoxx said:
Not saying its always the case, I'm just not convinced. FWIW, I'm learning a lot here in more ways than one.

And I will stand corrected with the following excerpt from Randy's excellent artcl. linked above....

Reason's for low pH
The aquarium is still cycling and excess acid is being produced by the nitrogen cycle and the degradation of organics to CO2.

reeferfoxx · Apr 13, 2016

NeptuneGarden said:
And I will stand corrected with the following excerpt from Randy's excellent artcl. linked above....

Reason's for low pH
The aquarium is still cycling and excess acid is being produced by the nitrogen cycle and the degradation of organics to CO2.

Same rule applies to freshwater. I tried to make that point earlier. This particular thread is vague in terms of information provided about the situation.