Low PH & Calcium...

stepho725

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PH has been steady but reading a 7.8 to 8 consistently.
Calcium stays at 380/400.
Sorry API tests make for difficult reading sometimes.
I had a similar problem in my last tank years ago. Could this be because I used play sand?? My tank is about 3 months old, do you think if this might be the case it would be too late to remove some of it and add crushed coral or an argonite based sand instead? I have about 1.5 inches in a 40B. I remember having to constantly fiddle with the Ph years ago but never put two and two together and I kept mostly soft coral/soft lps so calcium wasnt terribly important but I just want to try to do it better this time even if I'm not keeping a lot different in terms of species.
Thanks for input.
 
How airtight is your house?
My nano tank had this low pH issue a few years ago. Consistently 7.8. I read here about high CO2 in our homes causing pH to drop. And my home has lots of breathers - 2 people & 8 big dogs.
I did a test: I took two water samples, measured pH on one immediately (7.8) and the other I set outside for a few hours. That one’s pH was 8.1. It adjusted to the lower CO2 outside.
So I ran an airline from outside a window to the skimmer intake, and my pH rose to a steady 8.1 in that tank.
For my current tank, I started off running a hose from outside to the skimmer. My pH is 8.1.
 
I would agree with @s_tempest I ran a pipe outside to the skimmer and the pipes in the sump. Now my ph is a consistent 8.3 to 8.4 and previously I struggled to get above 8.
 
My battle with low PH...

Lights - Radion XR15 Pro x4, 9-hour for radion
Algae scrubber - the reverse of light schedule with a 60-minute overlap on each side
Dose 25.6 ML of BRS soda-ash via Neptune DOS every 3hrs +/-35%
Implemented 7days ago - Hybrid Sodium Hydroxide bubbler/CO2 (BRS Soda-lime media) (knicked name Hydro-Lime Scrubber) plumbed into skimmer - skimmer on 24/7

At night PH drops to 8.17, during the day PH has reached ~8.29
Tank located in basement approx. 3 feet from back door/bulkhead that is open often throughout the day in the spring and cracked about 1/2 in winter.
The basement is VERY airtight, 4 mil plastic moisture barrier fixed to concrete walls, 2x4 walls ALL with R-21 insulation, another 4 mil plastic moisture barrier, drywall, and that includes an R-30 insulation+drywall ceiling. No windows open as they are sealed and I have plans on replacing them this yr.

Alk- 8.86 to 9.2
Ca- 456
Mg- 1450

Inhabitants - fish load- 8 x Chromis, 3x Bimaculatus Anthias, 1 Naso. 1 Blue hippo
A mixed bag of sticks all growing very well.

Tank overall is doing well.

...Let me start by saying that I'm no scientist, I'm simply posting my observations and my engineering skills with implementing a hybrid approach to a Soda-lime scrubber using @Randy Holmes-Farley information about Sodium Hydroxide and its ability to be more effective at scrubbing CO2.

The Hydro-lime scrubber that I created is a simple bucket filled with RO/DI water and about 40ml cup of Sodium Hydroxide, two air Stones along with an air pump introduce air into the solution - the unit has an airtight lid however it still allows for some air to be pulled in due to the holes drilled for the airlines. From there, an air hose to the CO2 reactor Inlet and then another airline from the CO2 reactors Outlet to my skimmer air Inlet. This is a good time to note that the Sodium Hydroxide bubbler/scrubber by itself was not able to remove/scrub enough CO2 to get my pH above ~8, but that is still a very excitable range.

1615213656440.png


The main reason I decided to try this was that I was exhausting the Soda-Lime media in a little over 2-1/2 days, I figured if I can get the incoming air to be less saturated with atmospheric CO2 prior to hitting the soda-lime it would last that much longer, or so I hoped. As of right now, I'm getting into the ~3-day mark and the soda-lime media shows no signs of being exhausted (yet). The added bonus of courses is the fact that my pH now reaches well above 8.20 (when the lights are on) and closer to that magic 8.3 some folks seem to obsess about.

The layout of the Hydro-Lime Scrubber.
17C8E7EC-59B9-467E-8ED3-A98CA940A1C5.jpeg


...of course, only time will tell the longevity of this new (new to me) hybrid approach to scrubbing CO2 but I'm hopeful this will work out for me.

Update: 3/9/21

Current progress on the Hydro-Lime Hybrid Scrubber...

One thing to also note is the clear uptake in calcium and alkalinity.

As noted by the graphs, when PH went up, Alk consumption increased. I have slowly increased the amount that I'm dosing for both to compensate for the uptake.
1615296478444.png


Update 3:

One thing I just noticed was the accumulation of precipitate of SC inside the hose leading to the SL scrubber, it was easy enough to rinse always with warm tap water. I recall Randy noted this would happen: "Sodium carbonate will precipitate from it as more and more CO2 gets trapped."

Update today:

1615420321913.png


One last note:

I also agree that running a line outside will help, for me, living just adjacent to a busy road with plenty of traffic also causes its own issues with CO2 so my pH never got above 8.0 with a line running outside, on top of that during the winter season the water would get way too cold to keep that air-line a functional option.

My Hydro-Lime Hybrid Scrubber is going strong with no signs of depletion, the cost associated with Sodium Hydroxide is far less compared to Soda-Lime. Also, soda-lime is a mixture of NaOH & Ca(OH)₂, I'm simply using more NaOH (Sodium Hydroxide) and less Ca(OH)₂ (Calcium hydroxide).
 
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How airtight is your house?
My nano tank had this low pH issue a few years ago. Consistently 7.8. I read here about high CO2 in our homes causing pH to drop. And my home has lots of breathers - 2 people & 8 big dogs.
I did a test: I took two water samples, measured pH on one immediately (7.8) and the other I set outside for a few hours. That one’s pH was 8.1. It adjusted to the lower CO2 outside.
So I ran an airline from outside a window to the skimmer intake, and my pH rose to a steady 8.1 in that tank.
For my current tank, I started off running a hose from outside to the skimmer. My pH is 8.1.
I will try this test but I currently live alone and even I'm not home all the time so I cannot imagine there is a ton of co2 in my house.
My last tank I was a smoker and lived with a smoker so that may have made sense back then but I'm not a smoker any longer either.
 
I cannot imagine there is a ton of co2 in my house.
Carbon dioxide is heavier. By Avogadro's law, the density of a gas is proportional to its molecular mass. The average molecular mass of air is 29, and the molecular mass of CO2 is ~53% higher than that of dry air... CO2 eventually diffuses into the atmosphere due to the thermal vibration of their molecules.

Knowing it's a heavier gas means it tends to hang around more in sealed-up places without much atmosphere thermal vibration/air movement.

It also means YOU are not the only source of CO2:): CO2 is produced by all aerobic organisms when they metabolize organic compounds to produce energy by respiration. It is returned to water via the gills of fish and to the air via the lungs of air-breathing land animals, including humans. Carbon dioxide is produced during the processes of decay of organic materials and the fermentation of sugars in bread, beer, and winemaking, etc. It is produced by the combustion of wood, peat, and other organic materials and fossil fuels such as coal, petroleum, and natural gas.

...it might be advantageous for you to get a CO2 hobby-grade meter, it won't be as accurate as a lab-grade CO2 meter which is very cost-prohibitive for the hobby but it'll give you a good feeling for where your levels currently sit at. 400 - 1,000 ppm: typical level found in occupied spaces with good air exchange. 1,000 - 2,000 ppm: level associated with complaints of drowsiness and poor air. 2,000 - 5,000 ppm: level associated with headaches, sleepiness, and stagnant, stale, stuffy air.
 
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Addtionallt:

Because of human-driven increased levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, there is more CO2 dissolving into the ocean (think of that on a smaller scale - aquarium setup). The ocean's average pH is now around ~8.1, which is basic (or alkaline), but as the ocean continues to absorb more CO2, the pH decreases and the ocean becomes more acidic.

...it's widely known that a powerhead aimed up at the surface of your aquarium water helps in the gas exchange hence increasing your pH but at the same time that same water movement can result in more dissolved CO2; why (?), as I noted above the molecular mass of CO2 is ~53% higher than that of air. Placing a small fan, aimed at said surface will help move (some) of the CO2 but, that also opens up evaporative cooling issues that should be taken into consideration.
 
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Can you confirm your parameters for us, and check to see if your sand is showing signs of clumping up?
I suspect your low Calcium might be precipitation of calcium carbonate onto the play sand that you used.
 
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Addtionallt:

Because of human-driven increased levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, there is more CO2 dissolving into the ocean (think of that on a smaller scale - aquarium setup). The ocean's average pH is now around ~8.1, which is basic (or alkaline), but as the ocean continues to absorb more CO2, the pH decreases and the ocean becomes more acidic.

...it's widely known that a powerhead aimed up at the surface of your aquarium water helps in the gas exchange hence increasing your pH but at the same time that same water movement can result in more dissolved CO2; why (?), as I noted above the molecular mass of CO2 is ~53% higher than that of air. Placing a small fan, aimed at said surface will help move (some) of the CO2 but, that also opens up evaporative cooling issues that should be taken into consideration.
I love how you explained this; even if you say you’re no scientist, you have a good understanding. And I am a scientist, specifically a geochemist/university prof whose research and teaching focuses on marine biogeochemistry, global carbon cycling, and climate change.
The only point I challenge is connecting CO2’s heavier mass with its mixing. Turbulence mixes gases very easily. You need really still air for a long time to see heavier gases settle out.
 
I love how you explained this; even if you say you’re no scientist, you have a good understanding.
Thank you, professor!:)

The only point I challenge is connecting CO2’s heavier mass with its mixing.
CO2 is heavier than oxygen, so from my perspective and understanding, and I could be wrong, we might expect CO2 molecules to sink below a layer of oxygen molecules. It might not be a direct correlation of its mass, but one could theorize that in doing so it would allow a more opportunistic chance to directly affect (via turbulent mixing) the absorption and in turn, affect the acidification of the aquarium water and drive PH lower.
 
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Can you confirm your parameters for us, and check to see if your sand is showing signs of clumping up?
I suspect your low Calcium might be precipitation of calcium carbonate onto the play sand that you used.
Sand is only showing signs of clumping up when it is brought together by cyanobacteria or a ton of diatoms :) New Tank Syndrome is fun! I feel like I'm having difficulty with flow but alas....
Ph: 7.8-8
Ammonia:0
Nitrite:0
Nitrate:20-30
Kh: 8-9
Calcium: 380-400
Phosphate: 0
Again I provide them as ranges due to the coloring of the API tests. Either way i will say that these are consistently my parameters.
I was just wondering if it would be advantageous or harmful to my tank to change out the sand at this point. I didnt realize that I had a greater Ph problem going on...or I hoped not. I hoped it could be fixed with the sand lol. I hated chasing higher Ph. Such a fine line & naturally I am without a sump.
 
I try not to chase ph numbers as long as it's above 7.8 below 8.4.
My basement sump skimmer draws fresh outside air and it is what it is. Corals never have a problem growing.
For calcium, you can always bump it up with a little extra dose and continue how you dose alk/cal now.
 

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Sand is only showing signs of clumping up when it is brought together by cyanobacteria or a ton of diatoms :) New Tank Syndrome is fun! I feel like I'm having difficulty with flow but alas....
Ph: 7.8-8
Ammonia:0
Nitrite:0
Nitrate:20-30
Kh: 8-9
Calcium: 380-400
Phosphate: 0
Again I provide them as ranges due to the coloring of the API tests. Either way i will say that these are consistently my parameters.
I was just wondering if it would be advantageous or harmful to my tank to change out the sand at this point. I didnt realize that I had a greater Ph problem going on...or I hoped not. I hoped it could be fixed with the sand lol. I hated chasing higher Ph. Such a fine line & naturally I am without a sump.
I’m pretty sure you already know this but it might be advantageous for you to get a better set of hobbyist grade test kits. I absolutely deplore (just google API test results, you’ll get an earful from quite a few reviews) API and I’ve had nothing but crappy, on trustable, test results.

IMHO, most of your biological filtration is now seeded/established in the sand bed or at least starting to become established if you attempt to remove the sand you will more than likely see some sort of a negative effect. This can however be mitigated by some (sledgehammer) larger water changes, along with amped-up mechanical filtration.

As far as your calcium goes I would just simply increase the amount your dosing throughout the day.
 
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I was looking at the Hannah tests. How are those vs the Red Sea? About the same?
 
Sand is only showing signs of clumping up when it is brought together by cyanobacteria or a ton of diatoms :) New Tank Syndrome is fun! I feel like I'm having difficulty with flow but alas....
Ph: 7.8-8
Ammonia:0
Nitrite:0
Nitrate:20-30
Kh: 8-9
Calcium: 380-400
Phosphate: 0
Again I provide them as ranges due to the coloring of the API tests. Either way i will say that these are consistently my parameters.
I was just wondering if it would be advantageous or harmful to my tank to change out the sand at this point. I didnt realize that I had a greater Ph problem going on...or I hoped not. I hoped it could be fixed with the sand lol. I hated chasing higher Ph. Such a fine line & naturally I am without a sump.
You can always siphoned some out as you do water changes.
I really don't think it matters much or have a negative effect if you do a little bit of time. To add some I would just do aragonite sand and send it down through a pipe they don't create a dust storm.
 
I was looking at the Hannah tests. How are those vs the Red Sea? About the same?
I have the Hanna checkers for alk and ulr phosphate. I like them. Alk is quick, phosphate is easy but takes a few minutes. I also have the Hanna calcium checker but barely use it - I find it tedious compared to the Red Sea.
I get nearly the same numbers for both the Hanna & Red Sea Pro test kits, so in my view they’re both good quality. I have seen higher #s for the Hanna alk checker compared to Red Sea as I get near the last few mLs of the reagent, though.
I would like to try the Hanna nitrate checker, but don’t have any info on that. I struggle with the pink shades on the Red Sea Pro nitrate.
 
Here’s my list.

Ammonia: Red Sea
Nitrite: Red Sea
Nitrate: Nyos

...but, The Red Sea kit is a better option if you're in the below 1 range.

Phosphate: Hanna Phosphate ULR

Alkalinity: Hanna dKH checker
Calcium: APEX but double checked with Hanna
Magnesium: Nyos

pH: Anything probe based. I'm currently relying on my Apex for pH, but there are some stand alone pH monitors available.

Salinity: Hanna Salinity Tester. Somewhat inexpensive compared to digital refractometers (recently been reading a lot of issues with the ones made by Milwaukee, have it as a back up)

Temperature: APEX, but calibrated and tested against the Hanana. Not something that's typically talked about much, but IMHO having a way to confirm your temp probes/thermometers are accurate is HELPFUL.

Everybody has their own favorite test kit/s finding the one that works best for you is almost always a trial and error endeavor.
 

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