LPS, Low Nitrates, and Nitrate Competition

[myinvalidname]

Hi All,

I have a fairly new tank that I started with cured live rock that was from an other well established tank. My phosphates have measured high from the beginning, always around PO4 0.25 ppm. I believe the phosphate is coming from the live rock. While my nitrates NO3 have always been measuring 0 ppm (API test). I understand that the the excess PO4 means that my NO3 is the limiting reactant for coral and algae growth. I'm running GFO to remove the excess PO4 and purchased some liquid phosphate remover from Brightwell Aquatics that will arrive in a few day.

I have some green algae growth, decent coralline algae growth, and 3 LPS frags in the tank. And I know with the growth of the algaes, there is some free nitrate in the tank that is being used as fast as it's being created, hence the NO3 0 ppm measurements. My question is related to nitrate competition between the LPS and the micro and macro algaes. What is the nitrate uptake competition between LPS and micro / macro / coralline algaes? Will the faster growing algaes use the nitrate before the LPS can? Or are the slowing growing LPS corals getting enough at the moment? If not, how much time do I have to balance my PO4 and NO3, before the corals will be affected?

LPS:
Torch Corral - 1 head
Duncan Corral - 1 head
Acan Corral - 6 heads

All the Corrals look great. Full extenstion, eat when spot feed.

More info: My coralline algae has grown fast enough to drop my Ca from 400 ppm to 375 ppm (Red Sea Test) in the last 2 weeks.

Params:
NH3 0 ppm (API)
NO2 0 ppm (API)
NO3 0 ppm (API)
pH 8.4 (API)
PO4 0.25 ppm (API)
Ca 375 ppm (RedSea) - planned water change to get this back up
dKH 10.8

 

[ajmidget]

Hi All,

I have a fairly new tank that I started with cured live rock that was from an other well established tank. My phosphates have measured high from the beginning, always around PO4 0.25 ppm. I believe the phosphate is coming from the live rock. While my nitrates NO3 have always been measuring 0 ppm (API test). I understand that the the excess PO4 means that my NO3 is the limiting reactant for coral and algae growth. I'm running GFO to remove the excess PO4 and purchased some liquid phosphate remover from Brightwell Aquatics that will arrive in a few day.

I have some green algae growth, decent coralline algae growth, and 3 LPS frags in the tank. And I know with the growth of the algaes, there is some free nitrate in the tank that is being used as fast as it's being created, hence the NO3 0 ppm measurements. My question is related to nitrate competition between the LPS and the micro and macro algaes. What is the nitrate uptake competition between LPS and micro / macro / coralline algaes? Will the faster growing algaes use the nitrate before the LPS can? Or are the slowing growing LPS corals getting enough at the moment? If not, how much time do I have to balance my PO4 and NO3, before the corals will be affected?

LPS:
Torch Corral - 1 head
Duncan Corral - 1 head
Acan Corral - 6 heads

More info: My coralline algae has grown fast enough to drop my Ca from 400 ppm to 375 ppm (Red Sea Test) in the last 2 weeks.

Params:
NH3 0 ppm (API)
NO2 0 ppm (API)
NO3 0 ppm (API)
pH 8.4 (API)
PO4 0.25 ppm (API)
Ca 375 ppm (RedSea) - planned water change to get this back up
dKH 10.8

Following along as I have pretty much the exact same issue with my tank

 

[myinvalidname]

Figured I’d post some status.

Started dosing Phosphate RX at a rate to drop PO4 at 0.05 ppm per day. Things are working as expected.

The behavior of my torch coral is what made me more concerned than I should have been. Looks like nothing is wrong. In fact I think the head is splitting into either two or three total polyps.

Although it would be nice to know what the competition between algae and coral actually is. If anyone has any answers that would be great. The more I learn, the better.

 

[Mark Novack]

How new is fairly new?

 

[myinvalidname]

How new is fairly new?

It was 2 months old when I posted. Started with cured live rock and didn’t have a cycle. Added corals after a month. My corals are doing well so I assume they are getting what they need. But at the time I was curious about the algae-coral nutrient competition because I had some red turf algae take off on one of my rocks. I ended up getting a Mexican turbo snail, which made fast work of the turf algae. And it hasn’t come back.

So at the moment I’m going with the assumption that the LSP I have are able to compete with the algae even with fairly low nutrient levels.

My question is more general. So I can be more knowledgeable about tank dynamics and competition.

 

[Aquanautical]

Well there is your answer right there, don't go chacing numbers if they are healthy

 

[myinvalidname]

Well there is your answer right there, don't go chacing numbers if they are healthy

Not useful. I’m asking an academic question here. I new on this forum but I’ve read so much useless dribble that dilutes the high quality posts that make this forum valuable.

 

[Mark Novack]

I recurred my rock after 7 years. It cured for 10 months. It still cycled and took 6 or 8 months to stabilize. I think you should wait a bit and not chase parameters for now. Even if the nitrogen cycle is ready, it's still going to do the diatomes and all that jazz. Your PH of 8.4 is a decent sign of new tank.

 

[Dan_P]

What is the nitrate uptake competition between LPS and micro / macro / coralline algaes? Will the faster growing algaes use the nitrate before the LPS can? Or are the slowing growing LPS corals getting enough at the moment? If not, how much time do I have to balance my PO4 and NO3, before the corals will be affected?

Some thoughts.

Slow growing organisms may tolerate low nutrient levels better than fast growing ones.

Coral appearance is a good indication of health. Growth rate would be another indicator of health. Find out how fast you can expect the coral to grow and use that to evaluate how they are doing under your care.

Since you are feeding your coral, how important is the nitrate level?

There are many sources of nitrogen in a aquarium. Nitrate is the only one we can measure.

Current thinking is that coral do better in the presence of some nitrate. Does that apply when you are feeding your coral? Good forum question.

Since the aquarium is new, go slowly on making nutrient adjustments right now. Managing the phosphate level seems like a good idea though. Dosing nitrates is the most straightforward way to fine tune the nitrate level if you decide coral health is suffering from low levels. You will need to dose and then measure often to understand how quickly the system is consuming nitrate. Watch closely for nuisance algae growth.

 

[Aquanautical]

OK... Allow me to spell this out for you then

Biological competition of micro organisms is very complex in an environment with uncontrolled conditions unlike on an agar plate. There are many variables that will contribute to boom or bust of micro flora and fauna both in nature and within our reef tanks. The best way to monitor and judge the status of the competition is by observing the health and condition of each organism, a proper indication if there is out competition from another organism. This is much more accurate and useful than using test kits (esp API) to gauge what that competition is. Judge the heath of the corals and thus their endosymbionts and compare that to the algae growth. Also as Dan said, if you are feeding the coral then that is another variable that reduces the impact of dissolved nitrogen on the zooxanthellae, they have a close proximal source now.

Also if you bottom out N & P you risk blooming dinoflagellates.

the best way to quantify consumption within competition is to observe the corals health, chasing numbers from hobby grade test kits will not be as fruitful in gathering the information you want.

 

[myinvalidname]

OK... Allow me to spell this out for you then

Biological competition of micro organisms is very complex in an environment with uncontrolled conditions unlike on an agar plate. There are many variables that will contribute to boom or bust of micro flora and fauna both in nature and within our reef tanks. The best way to monitor and judge the status of the competition is by observing the health and condition of each organism, a proper indication if there is out competition from another organism. This is much more accurate and useful than using test kits (esp API) to gauge what that competition is. Judge the heath of the corals and thus their endosymbionts and compare that to the algae growth. Also as Dan said, if you are feeding the coral then that is another variable that reduces the impact of dissolved nitrogen on the zooxanthellae, they have a close proximal source now.

Also if you bottom out N & P you risk blooming dinoflagellates.

the best way to quantify consumption within competition is to observe the corals health, chasing numbers from hobby grade test kits will not be as fruitful in gathering the information you want.

Thank you.