LPS slowly dieing through out the tank.

[Lowefx]

@Lowefx everything sounds ok only problem I could see there is if the undiluted carbonate solution you are using is damagin there tissue but that would be a wide spread problem not specifically lps. I've never used zeostart so I can't give a definite but if it's like other carbon dosing perhaps you lowered your nutrients to fast and your water is actually to clean? How is your skimmer running? The bacteria you are feeding may be giving off a toxion. Again this is just spectaculation.

I started this tank from dry rock and dry sand using zeovit from the start. I started it a little over a year ago, plus the move. Nutrients have always been relatively low, but per my last test, my po4-.08 no3-over 4ppm. I wouldn't call that low.
Skimmer is running on the dryer side, with dark green skimmate when it accumulates. Maybe 1" per night.
Zeobak is kept in refrigerator and dosed 5 drops, 2x weekly.
I do feed the tank heavily, trying to keep LPS fed.
I hope my answers are helping. Keep asking questions...

 

[Lowefx]

It's very possible to keep lps in high par situations ,and may give them better colors, but it will not make them grow faster. It can actually slow and stop photosynthesis. It's been shown that lps grow and thrive with around 70 par. That's another topic we could talk about in another thread I was suggesting that to the op because he may of turned up his lights ,got new bulbs etc.. and "burnt the corals"

I did just replace my MH bulbs from old 20k to new 14k. Maybe the spectrum changed in the old bulbs and cause rtn? I don't think that adds up.

 

[ReefFreak@]

Hmm so you did just replace your halides! Did you like acclimate? I'm not saying this is the whole problem but it could be a contributing factor a lot of reefers assume it's always just one thing but much of the time its usually a few factors. On the nutrient note I wouldn't consider 4ppm of nitrate high but I would say watch it. I shoot for 2-5ppm on my salifert test. If I see it rising I look at what I'm doing and change if I have. For an example I went through I high feeder month and my nitrates rose to 5-10 and the next month I fed less then went to 1-2.5ppm,after that I found a happy medium. Sorry if I'm rambling it's my day off!!!

 

[CodyRVA]

It's very possible to keep lps in high par situations ,and may give them better colors, but it will not make them grow faster. It can actually slow and stop photosynthesis. It's been shown that lps grow and thrive with around 70 par.

Any data to support this claim? We can all chime in with our experiences and FWIW I keep LPS at 200-300 PAR and they grow like weeds. Random citation: Vivid recommends keeping LPS like hammers from 150-250

 

[Lowefx]

Hmm so you did just replace your halides! Did you like acclimate? I'm not saying this is the whole problem but it could be a contributing factor a lot of reefers assume it's always just one thing but much of the time its usually a few factors. On the nutrient note I wouldn't consider 4ppm of nitrate high but I would say watch it. I shoot for 2-5ppm on my salifert test. If I see it rising I look at what I'm doing and change if I have. For an example I went through I high feeder month and my nitrates rose to 5-10 and the next month I fed less then went to 1-2.5ppm,after that I found a happy medium. Sorry if I'm rambling it's my day off!!!

My day off too. Your questions are good and I want many people to see what's going on to help.
The problem started WAY before I changed the bulbs. I changed them last week. I've been having RTN for about 3 months or more.

 

[ReefFreak@]

Any data to support this claim? We can all chime in with our experiences and FWIW I keep LPS at 200-300 PAR and they grow like weeds. Random citation: Vivid recommends keeping LPS like hammers from 150-250

Yes there is scientific data to back this up. Dana riddle wrote a great article and represented his findings out macna. You can find this speach on YouTube. Type dana riddle Turbocharge. That explains that light isn't as important as one may thing. As far as for the specific par I was saying bulk reef supply found that lps photosynthesis topped out at around 70 par. Meaning any higher par than 70 is not going to increase photosynthesis so your basically just wasting more energy so the same growth benefits.

 

[ReefFreak@]

My day off too. Your questions are good and I want many people to see what's going on to help.
The problem started WAY before I changed the bulbs. I changed them last week. I've been having RTN for about 3 months or more.

Do you keep a log book? Check about and see what changes you've made. That's helped me out so much! Have you noticed an increase with the problem since changing your lights, neutral , or benefit?

 

[MnFish1]

Yes there is scientific data to back this up. Dana riddle wrote a great article and represented his findings out macna. You can find this speach on YouTube. Type dana riddle Turbocharge. That explains that light isn't as important as one may thing. As far as for the specific par I was saying bulk reef supply found that lps photosynthesis topped out at around 70 par. Meaning any higher par than 70 is not going to increase photosynthesis so your basically just wasting more energy so the same growth benefits.

But it does not mean that coral doesn't grow at higher light levels - it means that (some varieties - that he studied) did not photosynthesize 'more' as light increased. In his study there was par level where light became detrimental but it was not 70 PAR.

In the BRS video they suggest that LPS thrives in 50-200 PAR - with a 'sweet spot' at a PAR somewhat above 100. They also say that they tolerate higher levels.

 

[Salty.Reefer]

I was having very similar issues about 2 months ago. Many of my lps starting fading and loosing tissue. Some rapidly (like 2 days) and others over the course of a month. Same thing, I was testing and dosing by hand and the issue seemed really confusing.
Then my friend gifted me a doser when he got a new one. After I got the loser dialed in, All my lps looks much happier and I have not seen any tissue lose since then. I believe it has to do with alk swings and ph.
Now my chalices and scans have been showing new growth with additional mouths.
Hope this helps and your beautiful coral make a rebound!

 

[ReefFreak@]

But it does not mean that coral doesn't grow at higher light levels - it means that (some varieties - that he studied) did not photosynthesize 'more' as light increased. In his study there was par level where light became detrimental but it was not 70 PAR

I'm sorry maybe you miss understood that video was to inform you on that effects of light. As I mentioned before bulk reef supply did the other study finding that for lps 70 par and up did not show a increase in photosynthesis. There's two videos you have to watch to understand what I am saying lol. Yes I agree you can grow the coral at high light it's just not making it grow faster. Let me know if that makes sense

 

[ReefFreak@]

I was having very similar issues about 2 months ago. Many of my lps starting fading and loosing tissue. Some rapidly (like 2 days) and others over the course of a month. Same thing, I was testing and dosing by hand and the issue seemed really confusing.
Then my friend gifted me a doser when he got a new one. After I got the loser dialed in, All my lps looks much happier and I have not seen any tissue lose since then. I believe it has to do with alk swings and ph.
Now my chalices and scans have been showing new growth with additional mouths.
Hope this helps and your beautiful coral make a rebound!

Glad to see you found your problem! Stability is key to success in this hobby

 

[Lowefx]

Do you keep a log book? Check about and see what changes you've made. That's helped me out so much! Have you noticed an increase with the problem since changing your lights, neutral , or benefit?

I do keep a log book, and haven't changed too much in months. After switched lights only noticed neutral so far. It has only been a week.

 

[XNavyDiver]

What I find strange in this situation @Lowefx, is your SPS are unaffected. If it were unstable h2o parameters, it would make sense to me that they would be your canary in the coal mine, not your LPS.
There seems to be more qualified individuals chiming in on this, but for what it's worth, I also had a CO2 scrubber hooked up into my system just like yours. It boosted my pH, but it also made my pH swing wildly at higher values (apex monitored) from 8.1 to 8.5+. I unhooked it, and went to kalkwasser in ATO and my pH hovers STEADILY at 7.9 to 8.0. Since then, the corals (both lps and sps) seemed to be much happier. My system is probably younger than yours by quiet a bit, but it makes sense to me that if your dosing your 2 part by hand, you might want to think about getting a dosser and spreading out your dosses in smaller amounts over many times a day.
Just my .02.

 

[MnFish1]

I'm sorry maybe you miss understood that video was to inform you on that effects of light. As I mentioned before bulk reef supply did the other study finding that for lps 70 par and up did not show a increase in photosynthesis. There's two videos you have to watch to understand what I am saying lol. Yes I agree you can grow the coral at high light it's just not making it grow faster. Let me know if that makes sense

I understand what you meant - that the coral doesn't grow faster. The problem is neither BRS nor Dana Riddle studied every type of LPS coral to figure out where photosynthesis stops - so I'm not sure you can say 70 PAR is best. In aquaria, we have many different types of coral that have not been studied in this manner. Many LPS corals tolerate and thrive in different PAR levels. So in summary - there is not 'scientific evidence' that says keeping (species x) of LPS at a PAR of 70 is better than keeping it at 200 (because it simply hasn't been studied in many varieties). In any case, it isn't a high PAR value causing the problem in this tank.

BTW, I watched both videos. I just quoted the BRS video in my post above (In the BRS video they suggest that LPS thrives in 50-200 PAR - with a 'sweet spot' at a PAR somewhat above 100. They also say that they tolerate higher levels.). They also say that too much light is harmful to LPS.

If you look at the graphs of PAR vs photosynthesis - in Riddles video - he says 'photosynthesis levels off' and at some point there is photo inhibition where more light causes slower growth and that at highest light levels zooxanthellae use more energy recovering from damage causing slower coral growth. That does not happen at the point that photosynthesis levels off - it occurs at much higher PAR than 70. Riddle was looking at one specific porites coral in a tide pool. In his tide pool experiment - the photosynthesis leveled off at about 100 PAR at about 9AM and didnt reach back to this level until 5PM - in the middle of the day - the PAR in the tide pool was >1000. (And in the video he compared the tide pool version (stunted) to a deeper water variety that was huge.

 

[Lowefx]

What I find strange in this situation @Lowefx, is your SPS are unaffected. If it were unstable h2o parameters, it would make sense to me that they would be your canary in the coal mine, not your LPS.
There seems to be more qualified individuals chiming in on this, but for what it's worth, I also had a CO2 scrubber hooked up into my system just like yours. It boosted my pH, but it also made my pH swing wildly at higher values (apex monitored) from 8.1 to 8.5+. I unhooked it, and went to kalkwasser in ATO and my pH hovers STEADILY at 7.9 to 8.0. Since then, the corals (both lps and sps) seemed to be much happier. My system is probably younger than yours by quiet a bit, but it makes sense to me that if your dosing your 2 part by hand, you might want to think about getting a dosser and spreading out your dosses in smaller amounts over many times a day.
Just my .02.

Thanks for chiming in!!! I JUST tested it at this instant. I'm reading 8.3dkh. Which I think is a little over average. But how do the people running 10+dkh keep their stuff thriving?
My PH is only tested with Salifert weekly. Always shows 8, but it's not a fantsy Apex. I hope to get dosers and apex by Xmas. My budget is tight right now.

 

[Lowefx]

I understand what you meant - that the coral doesn't grow faster. The problem is neither BRS nor Dana Riddle studied every type of LPS coral to figure out where photosynthesis stops - so I'm not sure you can say 70 PAR is best. In aquaria, we have many different types of coral that have not been studied in this manner. Many LPS corals tolerate and thrive in different PAR levels. So in summary - there is not 'scientific evidence' that says keeping (species x) of LPS at a PAR of 70 is better than keeping it at 200 (because it simply hasn't been studied in many varieties). In any case, it isn't a high PAR value causing the problem in this tank.

BTW, I watched both videos. I just quoted the BRS video in my post above (In the BRS video they suggest that LPS thrives in 50-200 PAR - with a 'sweet spot' at a PAR somewhat above 100. They also say that they tolerate higher levels.). They also say that too much light is harmful to LPS.

If you look at the graphs of PAR vs photosynthesis - in Riddles video - he says 'photosynthesis levels off' and at some point there is photo inhibition where more light causes slower growth and that at highest light levels zooxanthellae use more energy recovering from damage causing slower coral growth. That does not happen at the point that photosynthesis levels off - it occurs at much higher PAR than 70. Riddle was looking at one specific porites coral in a tide pool. In his tide pool experiment - the photosynthesis leveled off at about 100 PAR at about 9AM and didnt reach back to this level until 5PM - in the middle of the day - the PAR in the tide pool was >1000. (And in the video he compared the tide pool version (stunted) to a deeper water variety that was huge.

Okay guys, let's not get off topic here. My lights are not the problem here. Please save your debate for another thread. I will take these opinions into consideration. Thank you.

Pics of my sps

 

[ReefFreak@]

I understand what you meant - that the coral doesn't grow faster. The problem is neither BRS nor Dana Riddle studied every type of LPS coral to figure out where photosynthesis stops - so I'm not sure you can say 70 PAR is best. In aquaria, we have many different types of coral that have not been studied in this manner. Many LPS corals tolerate and thrive in different PAR levels. So in summary - there is not 'scientific evidence' that says keeping (species x) of LPS at a PAR of 70 is better than keeping it at 200 (because it simply hasn't been studied in many varieties). In any case, it isn't a high PAR value causing the problem in this tank.

BTW, I watched both videos. I just quoted the BRS video in my post above (In the BRS video they suggest that LPS thrives in 50-200 PAR - with a 'sweet spot' at a PAR somewhat above 100. They also say that they tolerate higher levels.). They also say that too much light is harmful to LPS.

If you look at the graphs of PAR vs photosynthesis - in Riddles video - he says 'photosynthesis levels off' and at some point there is photo inhibition where more light causes slower growth and that at highest light levels zooxanthellae use more energy recovering from damage causing slower coral growth. That does not happen at the point that photosynthesis levels off - it occurs at much higher PAR than 70. Riddle was looking at one specific porites coral in a tide pool. In his tide pool experiment - the photosynthesis leveled off at about 100 PAR at about 9AM and didnt reach back to this level until 5PM - in the middle of the day - the PAR in the tide pool was >1000. (And in the video he compared the tide pool version (stunted) to a deeper water variety that was huge.

As @Lowefx said we can discuss this in another thread.

 

[XNavyDiver]

Thanks for chiming in!!! I JUST tested it at this instant. I'm reading 8.3dkh. Which I think is a little over average. But how do the people running 10+dkh keep their stuff thriving?
My PH is only tested with Salifert weekly. Always shows 8, but it's not a fantsy Apex. I hope to get dosers and apex by Xmas. My budget is tight right now.

Well, from my understanding, folks running their systems at high dKH (10-12), also run their systems with high nutrients (to prevent alk burn). 8.3 dKH sounds ideal really from what I've been seeing from many other reefers here. But all of this talk of dKH stability has ALWAYS from all my reading here, been in reference to SPS corals... which isn't your problem in this case. Which is weird and has me scratching my head.

 

[ReefFreak@]

Well, from my understanding, folks running their systems at high dKH (10-12), also run their systems with high nutrients (to prevent alk burn). 8.3 dKH sounds ideal really from what I've been seeing from many other reefers here. But all of this talk of dKH stability has ALWAYS from all my reading here, been in reference to SPS corals... which isn't your problem in this case. Which is weird and has me scratching my head.

That's why I assumed it had to be to much flow, affecting there fleshy poylps.

 

[XNavyDiver]

That's why I assumed it had to be to much flow, affecting there fleshy poylps.

Yeah, that's a route to look at also, but I tend to agree with @Rick.45cal on the flow scenario. Unless the flow is literally ripping the flesh of the polyps and depositing sand onto them, or burying them, then it just seems unlikely to me. I've got lps in my tank, but have very strong water movement also for the sps (enough to reshape the sand bed on a daily basis). The lps don't seem to mind.