Mad idea?

[Scottmac]

Hello,

OK, this may sound like a crazy risk to some, but I am setting up my first marine aquarium and, frankly, i'm not very interested in fish (I already have 2 tanks with large colourful fresh water tropical fish). The reason I have decided to set up a marine tank is I want corals and critters - but without spending a fortune, and the gambler in me loves the idea of pot luck hitch hiker finds...

I live in the North East England, about 20 mins from the coast, and if you aren't familiar with the area the North sea is COLD (think Vikings series on tv), but the coast has loads of amazing beaches inc rockpool zones full of life. But to have corals I need the tank temp set to tropical 25/26 degrees C.

Do you think it is possible to slowly acclimatise cold water marine fauna to a tropical marine temp without too much die off? If so, could I take live rock and anything else I manage to find in the rock pools (crabs of all kinds, gobies, transparent shrimps, small eels, bright red anemonies and all sorts of snails are v common) and introduce them to the tank if I set the temp low and slowly increase daily? Any die off woudl be removed, and I'd make sure I chose a remote section of coast far from any seaside towns & villages to minimise pollutants.

Madness or genius?

Cheers

Scott

 

[Webslinger]

madness

 

[AcroNem]

Short answer, no. I've worked with plenty of cold water species and they won't tolerate tropical temperatures for long. You might have some that live for longer, but they will likely not live long.

*edit* I have not attempted acclimating cold water species to tropical/warm water, my post makes it sound like I have. I have not. I just have experience with them.

 

[DeniseAndy]

The reason they thrive there is they are cold water species. You may keep a couple in higher temps, but my gues is lifespan will be seriously effected. I would say, if you want a cold water tank, get a chiller and do a cold water tank.

 

[AcroNem]

Yep. I agree. You want those species you need to do it right.

 

[samnaz]

Do a cold water tank!

 

[Fishbird]

Yeah species in cold water are adapted to the cold water in all kinds of ways. Their bodies need certain ambient temperatures to function. Think about how bees and butterflies (for example) can't start flying in the morning until they warm up. For marine species that need cold water its the opposite. Their body systems only work at cold temperatures. You'd just be slowly (or quickly) killing whatever you bring home.

Plus, without a chiller how would you get your water down to an appropriate temperature to start with anyway?

I'm sorry! I understand the desire to have hitchhikers. I don't know if there is anybody selling aquacultured live rock (rock placed on leased patches of ocean for a couple of years so you get hitchhikers without destroying reefs) in England. I'm not sure but maybe @Lasse would know about live rock sources in Europe at least?

 

[Scottmac]

Thanks for the replies, oh well it was worth a shot, I may take your advice and go for a cold water tank. At least that way I can get everything for free!

There are a surprising number of types of fish and eel I have spotted when rock pool hunting with my kids, and my brother even once found an Octopus so you never know.

Cheers

Scott

 

[Scottmac]

Thanks for the reply and I understand the point your making, but hear me out, this is my rationale...

1. One of my sons tanks I set up over 2 years ago has a mix of cold water (Orandas, Moors, Lionheads) with tropical (Gouramis, Tetras, Plecs and Corys) and in over 2 years we have only lost a Moor from a fungus, and a few Tetras (eaten by the largest Oranda I suspect). The rest of the cold water fish are perfectly fine at 24oC. So that's an example of a high temp range is possible, in fresh water anyway.

2. Go to the coast on a sunny day at a time between low and high tide and stick your feet in the sea. Then put them in a rock pool. Feel the difference? Esp in summer, the rock pools warm up quite significantly higher than the temp of the surrounding sea, and yet twice a day that tide will turn and the rock pool water temp (as well asd the water level) will go up and down like clockwork. That means the fish and critters in the tidal zone must be evolved to be highly adpatable to fairly rapid temp changes. I know the change isn't as large as I'm proposing, but the principle is the same.

I'm tempted to experiment crazy as it sounds on some basic inverts (dons crazy scientist lab coat)...

Scott

 

[Lasse]

You are talking about rock pools and animals in them. During summer - rock pools can get very high in temperature and it means that animals you will find in the higher rock pools can be adapted to withstand high temperatures for a while. The question of the temperature is not as easy that it is only a question of temperature - is mostly a question of oxygen levels - in 30 degree C - max saturation in saltwater is around 6.3 ppm , 7.3 ppm in 25 degree C and around 8.7 ppm in 15 degree C. Often in coral aquarium - the saturation levels drops to around 80 % during nighttime - it means that the total oxygen level will drop to around 5 ppm in 30 degree C - critical low for many gill breathing animals.

But if you go to the upper rock pools (which not get daily break in of fresh and cold saltwater - you will find animals of many different types adapted to both low oxygen levels and different salinity. These animals will go well - at least for a while in a tropical aquarium - but you have the cold season even here. This animals can withstand low oxygen levels for a while but do they need the cold period for other reasons..... I have had both snails and shrimps from high rock pools for at least some months but I do not think I have any of them left after 1 year.

1. One of my sons tanks I set up over 2 years ago has a mix of cold water (Orandas, Moors, Lionheads) with tropical (Gouramis, Tetras, Plecs and Corys) and in over 2 years we have only lost a Moor from a fungus, and a few Tetras (eaten by the largest Oranda I suspect). The rest of the cold water fish are perfectly fine at 24oC. So that's an example of a high temp range is possible, in fresh water anyway.

At 100 % saturation freshwater can hold around 1.3 - 1.5 ppm more oxygen compared with 35 psu saltwater at the same temperature

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Scottmac]

Hello,

Very interesting reply thank you. I should have thought of that as seen documentaries showing the most life-rich marine waters are polar region because of the high dissolved oxygen in v cold water. I hadn't realised there was such a difference , that makes sense. Oh well, I may set up a cold water tank in that case.

Thanks

Scott

 

[AmaleeC]

I think it’d be a great experiment on some inverts! I’m curious to see what happens.
I was so focused on temp, I didn’t realize oxygen would also be a factor! With that being said, wouldn’t you need to provide an environment similar to the one that the animals are currently in? I’m not saying it’s impossible but I’m trying to think about how not having that daily shift from cold water to hot water would affect them. Because those animals have adapted to depend on that shift. If they don’t like it when it’s hot, they swim into the cold water and if they like things a bit hotter, they come out when the water is hot.

 

[Lasse]

In the upper rock pools - where the tide and the normal waves not reach - it is normally i very high temperature during summer. There can be a steady temperature not below 20 - 22 degree C for the whole summer up here at the Swedish west coast. Down in UK - it is normally warmer and contain a lot of animals that seldom is seen up here even if global warming had make it more common with organism used of warmer temperature up here. However - how long these animals will live if they not get the cooler part of the year is unknown.

But go with a colder aquarium - you have a lot of beautiful rock anemones down there in the UK.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Scottmac]

I have been thinking more on it, and as my tank has two filters (one int and one ext) I have positioned the two spray bars horizontally at the water surface, to maximise surface disturbance and gas transference. It would be easy to also add a bubble stone pump inside the internal filter box for a further boost to gas transfer if that would be a benefit. Would that increase O2 ppm at tropical temps, or is temp the controlling factor of O2 saturation?

Lasse, you are correct that the UK waters are warmer than the neighbouring countries, mainly as we get the direct affects of the Gulf Stream. It mainly affects the west coast of Scotland where I am originally from, but the east coast of the UK gets some of the warmth as well. In fact without the Gulf Stream we would be as cold as Norway. My Great Uncle was a fisherman off the north west highlands of Scotland, and he used to catch an amazing variety of sealife including squid and octopus, would very often sea Minky Whales and Basking Sharks, and the rockpools are full of beautiful coloured anemonies.

If I make the experiment I will tell you all how it goes!

 

[vetteguy53081]

These concepts are out there and not unusual and can be a very pretty sight and as natural as an ocean. I would consider a clown to produce poop for tank and add to bacterial cycle

 

[Udest]

I Remember seeing some temperate water tanks and some of the fish are amazing ,like the old wife from Australia or the cold water box fishes from there it's too bad cooler temp tanks are uncommon so I'd say experiment away and see what works.

 

[Lasse]

have been thinking more on it, and as my tank has two filters (one int and one ext) I have positioned the two spray bars horizontally at the water surface, to maximise surface disturbance and gas transference. It would be easy to also add a bubble stone pump inside the internal filter box for a further boost to gas transfer if that would be a benefit.

I would also include an Oxidator in the setup @atoll is an UK citizen and know a lot of these handy oxygen producing things.

Would that increase O2 ppm at tropical temps, or is temp the controlling factor of O2 saturation?

All of this equipment will rise the oxygen up to saturation levels but the temperature and salinity is the main factors for how high the concentration in ppm correspond to 100 % saturation.


Sincerely Lasse

 

[atoll]

Dissolved Oxygen - Environmental Measurement Systems

Dissolved oxygen refers to the level of free oxygen present in water. Levels that are too high or too low can harm aquatic life and affect water quality.

www.fondriest.com

 

[Scottmac]

I think it’d be a great experiment on some inverts! I’m curious to see what happens.
I was so focused on temp, I didn’t realize oxygen would also be a factor! With that being said, wouldn’t you need to provide an environment similar to the one that the animals are currently in? I’m not saying it’s impossible but I’m trying to think about how not having that daily shift from cold water to hot water would affect them. Because those animals have adapted to depend on that shift. If they don’t like it when it’s hot, they swim into the cold water and if they like things a bit hotter, they come out when the water is hot.

@AmaleeC: I don't think it's that they depend on the (twice) daily shift, but are resistant to it. As Lasee has pointed out, there are different ecosystems depending on how low/high they are located in the tidal pattern.

So I will see if those higher up the tidal line can survive at higher temps in my tank first (as they are more used to higher temps and longer periods at lower oxygen) before trying organisms from further down to the sealine.

 

[atoll]

A fishes ability to adapt is very important when we consider temperature and the O2 content of the water. As examples and as pointed out above many blennies are very adaptable to sudden temperatures fluctuations and O2 levels.

Now consider an animal like the Achilles Tang. These are found near the reef Crest where O2 levels can exceed 100%. They often don't fare well in some peoples aquariums due to O2 levels lower than these tangs can adaot and do well in.

Personally I use an Oxydator to ensure my O2 levels are maintained. Many who use Oxydators report increased vigour and even increased colour in some fish after adding an oxydator. I never run an aquarium without one.