Maintaining ALK and dosing using Kalkwasser (Mrs. Sages Pickling Lye)

[Donny B]

Hello,

I need help in understanding why I can't seem balance my alkalinity correctly, and when trying to dose, it actually goes down. The tank is 2 years old, and originally used IORC for salt. I could never get my alkalinity up above 6.5. I eventually switched to RS coral pro salt, and Alkalinity was better (7.0), but mag was high. I ended up trying a 2-part dosing program of C-balance. Even though I was following the directions, and dosing equal parts, my calcium would jump way up and my alkalinity would either stay the same or go down actually. I've ended up switch to Kent Marine salt, and for the most part I am happy with it and stopped using the 2-part because it basically made everything worse. I was later introduced to Kalkwasser, Mrs. Sages Pickling lye by a fellow member (he also suggested I post this thread here). At first, it worked great, first time I've ever had my ALK above 8.0, matter of fact, 8.8 is where it was at one point and noticed a tremendous positive response in my tank. Now, it seems no matter what I do, it has the opposite effect, my calcium go up and ALK go waaaaaay down with any attempt to use this. I was hoping someone would explain my problem and why using kalkwasser isn't working for me. What am I doing wrong here? Here is how I use it... First, I put exactly 5 gallons of fresh RO water in in one of those orange gatorade/water sports water cooler things. It's 98% sealed, there is a small hole in the lid for air exchange at water liguid is drained from the spout. I mix exactly 1 teaspoon of pickling lye per gallon, so 5 teaspoons for 5 gallons, 1:1 ratio. Give it a good thorough stir, and wait for atleast 24 hours before using to allow it to saturate and settle. I use an ATO setup, which holds about 4.5 gallons. I fill the ATO with fresh RO and mix in 1-2 quarts of kalk-water per the 4.5 gallons of ATO RO water, so essentially, I feel this is a very light mix. I test my aquarium using Red Sea test kits, I have multiples and verify the results against other tests with different kits. My levels are low, alk like 5.5-6, calc 390, mag 1200. I do a 25% water change. Then test a couple days later, levels increase to alk 6.5, calc 400, mag 1300. Begin kalkwasser regiment, and test a couple days later, the levels will occasionally come up a little bit, couple tenths maybe, and then immediately start declining rapidly. It's almost as if the use of the kalkwasser makes it worse. I tried inceasing my kalk mix, decreasing, or not using at all, same results, everything drops. Using the kalkwasser seems to make the alk levels drop more rapidly like crashing. I often throwout my kalk mix if I feel it has sat too long and mix up a new batch, I don't understand what I am doing wrong. Anything I try to do to raise and balance my alk, seems to have the opposite effect. I notice that my PH also drops rapidly. I don't understand it worked fine in the beginning. The weird thing is, the kalkwasser does a great job of raising and maintaining Calc, but it makes my alkalinity drop, I don't get it.

Tank Stats:

75g w/15g sump-refugium
Evergrow D2120 LED's
Finnex 500w heater and controller
JBJ ATO
phosban reactor with GFO
bubblemagus curve 5.5 protein skimmer
carbon and filter block
Chaeto/mexicana calurpa in sump
2 MP10w's
2 koralia 800's w/controller
1 koralai 240 (sump)

temp 81
salinity 1.024
PH 7.8-8.3
ALK - 6.3 dKh
Calc - 450

Yellow tag
tomini tang
2x SF clowns w/ large GBTA
Tiger pistol
orange spot goby
3x sapphire damsels
2 red banded shrimp

assorted mushrooms
5 kinds of monti pora plate and 1 encrusting
lots of euphyllia 8 kinds, ranging from golfball to melon size
assorted zoas
1 small duncan
1 maxima clam
calitort
green acro
pulchra acro

90 lbs LR
oolight sugar fine sand, bout 2"
No current algae issues

 

[heathd.hd]

I just switched to kalk and did the same mix but I'm using at 100% at that mix. So I make the 5 gallons with 5 tsp of pickling lime and put it right into my ato. My alk is happy sitting at 9. CA is 420. I just don't think your using enough.

 

[Rob Top1]

Couple things come to mind. First and foremost I feel your pain, been there.
Now Randy will be able to explain the how and why, but I might be able to get you to the end result. First question is do you aerate your water before mixing in salt, and salt into the water not water on top of salt. If not do so. I heavily aerate for 24 hrs. It's drives the Co2 out with out doing so the Co2 can suck up a lot of bicarbonate from our mix. Second thing is there is a sweet spot of alk that when you are there the uptake is greatest, that's why you can be at 8.8 and drop like a rock. Depending on your load and yours is a good amount how fast that drops could be days or hours. To get my system dialed in I did am and pm tests for two weeks. My alk would drop from 9.25ish to 8.25ish about every 12 hours. I couldn't get enough kalk into the system and switched to a two part. I would suggest you first get your numbers balanced. Bulk Reef Supply has some calculators that you put in volume, current and desire alk and product you will use hit calculate and it tells you how much to dose to hit your number. They also have a calcium and magnesium one. Once you r balanced count that as day one. Dose nothing on day 2-4 but test each day. You will see your systems consumption and be able to get a dosing program set that will keep u balanced.
Also check out Randys articles in the New mag R2R has. If you haven't seen it there is a link at the top of the forum page. I've read most of Randy's articles and this is one of his best IMO.
Hope this helps or at least gets you a start

 

[DFW]

Here is a link to a calculator that will give you a jumping off point for determining how much to dose. In the alkalinity products drop down menu you will find "saturated lime water", which is 2 teaspoons per gallon of water. Once you establish the alkalinity, and calcium levels where you want them, you will be able to get close without having to test every day. And once you get them where you want them, you can just test for alkalinity and dose according to that because when using lime water they go up, and down together.

'Reef Chemistry Calculator FV'

 

[Donny B]

Ok, so to answer your question.... How I do my water change....I make fresh RO, transfer it to a mixing bucket, that mixing bucket has a pump and tube in it to circulate the water. I let it sit circulation for 24 hours at least before I use it to change the water. and you lost me on all the this uptake stuff, I understand bicarbonate though.

 

[heathd.hd]

https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185123
Making lime water

Read through this randy goes over some of the stuff your asking.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I think some of your early problems were because the salt mixes started high in calcium, and you were reluctant to add enough two part to maintain alkalinity.

One thing I can guarantee is that limewater (kalkwasser) is not causing alkalinity to go down and calcium to increase. It is simply not possible as there is no mechanism for it to happen.

I expect one problem is that you are adding so little actual lime that it isn't adequately maintaining alkalinity (and calcium), but that calcium is being artificially maintained by a salt mix with high calcium (or an inaccurate test kit). Your mix is super dilute and wouldn't be expected to do much.

Adding limewater will boost both alkalinity and pH, and increasing either of those will increase demand int eh tank for alkalinity because corals calcify faster and abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate increases. So boosting calcium to 8 dKH will cause a much bigger daily drop in alkalinity than will letting it be at 6 dKH.

I think the most likely thing that will help you is to not dilute the limewater at all, but to add it at the concentration you are making it at (which is already only half of saturation). One concern is how fast your ATO adds the limewater. How fast does it add water? You want slow delivery.

Can you read exactly what the product bag says it is? Mrs. Wages makes several products, and perhaps you are using the wrong one. It should be this one exactly:

 

[Mike in CT]

If it was me, ( I have a 75 also) I would just by some Kalkwasser so you know what your getting. I put a teaspoon a gallon for my top off to help bring my ph up and even though I bought a small container, it takes a long time to even put a dent in it. I top off once a day... almost a gallon over about a 1/2 hour and I do not notice much of a ph boost afterwards so it seems like a safe amount.

 

[Donny B]

Randy,

Thank you for a quick reply. The rate at which my ATO deposits water has always been a question for me since trying to dose kalkwasser via the ATO. As you know, that is strongly dependent on relative humidity and ambient temp and tank temp differences. It's inconsistent this time of year because we go from 35 degrees F and dry to 50 degrees and wet overnight. At best guess, I am using about .5 to 1.25 gal per day. As I need top off ATO about every 72 hours give or take. While that seems broad ranged, so is our temp from day to day on Washington state. Hence, my mixture being so dilute, my attempt at having more control. As far as the product inquiry, I am using exactly the product you provided a link for. Since I use way more water this time of year than other seasons, I didn't want to over dose. So the question is, now what? For starters, I will up my dosing. Keeping the 50% saturation, but using it as 100% ATO water and see what happens. Can't hurt anything. But, I was using a more concentrated mix previously and once I got it to the desired level, within 3 days, the ALK went from 8.8 to 6.5 rapidly. Thought I was using too much. Maybe I just don't understand the chemistry completely. Secondly, I'd like to look into dosing pump/controllers in an effort to have more precise control, since my ATO can be unpredictable during various seasonal and humidity changes. I'll report back in a few days with results, unless there is something that is disagreed with here and I don't understand. Ultimately, I'd like to reduce my water changes and salt costs. Although, something to consider, that I failed to mention. I'm a euphyllia nut! Especially octo's. The monti and Acroporas I listed are recent additions to the tank, over the last few months in an effort to diversify color and texture. So, that may be contributing to an increased demand by the tank, and increased frustration on my part. Thanks again everyone, I'll report back with findings.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I dose my limewater by ATO also. My speed question related more to how fast it was delivering water when it is on, not over a whole day. The total volume delivered each day is fine, but we do not want to deliver it in big glugs at once.

 

[Donny B]

mine delivers approx 1/2 - 3/4 of a quart in each delivery give or take a few ounces.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

If that is to a sump, you may see some precipitation of calcium carbonate on the walls of the sump if that is delivered fairly quickly, but I'd try it and see how it goes.

 

[UK_Pete]

If your evap is so variable, wouldent it be better for alk stability to just switch back to 2 part and top off with RO? Otherwise surely your alk is going to be bouncing all over the place, and most people seem to think that SPS respond very badly to varying alk. Unless you need the pH effect of kalk but you don't mention that. If you have a dosing pump you can just gradually zero in on the right amount to prevent the alk dropping like you describe in your original post (although the way it sounds, I would check and double check your test kits and maybe test twice in a row to make sure your technique is getting consistent results IMO).