Making your own Ca???

Well, I know that it won't keep up with the levels, ie "not enough", using Kalk only as you were advocating in your post, from personal experience. I tried it. It doesn't keep up with a mature mixed reef. That is all I was replying to. As for the OP question. 2 part can be made yourself. I have done it for years. I have used the Randy Holmes-Farley method of chemicals and the easier BRS 2 part.


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I make my own calcium, alk and magnesium. Calcium and mag from bulkreefsupply and alk is made from regular baking soda from the grocery store. I mix it with my RO/DI water and put it into empty milk jugs to dose via ATO or BRS dosing pumps.

This is what I want to do, dose Ca from BRS and Arm'n'Hammer baking soda using BRS doser 1.1. However I want to use the smallest amount of liquid possible just to save the pump. In my calculations it would be around 100ml/day so the pump would need to work for about 90 min. If I make a stronger solution the liquid is quite milky. Can you share how you dose baking soda?
 
This is what I want to do, dose Ca from BRS and Arm'n'Hammer baking soda using BRS doser 1.1. However I want to use the smallest amount of liquid possible just to save the pump. In my calculations it would be around 100ml/day so the pump would need to work for about 90 min. If I make a stronger solution the liquid is quite milky. Can you share how you dose baking soda?

I mix 1 cup baking soda in 1 gallon RO/DI and dose with a BRS dosing pump controlled by my reef keeper lite. Calcium I add to my ATO and it tops off the tank and adds calcium at the same time.


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I think a lot of people are afraid to make their own or they feel like if it has a fancy label on the bottle it's better or somehow more suitable for a reef tank. Much of the store bought stuff has other unnecessary ingredients that I don't want in my tank.

For example;

Many store bought alkalinity buffers contain borate to temporarily raise pH. Since I don't want elevated levels of borate in my tank I'd rater use pure baking soda.


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I think a lot of people are afraid to make their own or they feel like if it has a fancy label on the bottle it's better or somehow more suitable for a reef tank. Much of the store bought stuff has other unnecessary ingredients that I don't want in my tank.

I think I look at it the other way. Newbs are correct in being afraid to make their own because they have no idea what they are doing yet. After all, one doesn't learn to drive by learning to make gasoline, right? ;-)

I'm not sure how prevalent borates are in the chems you are referring to (any specific example?) and I'm not sure how big a deal it is either, unless you happen to be "one of those people" who never do water changes. (Bad for newbs!) I will say that borate salts are the most common "contaminant" in DIY-grade Calcium Chloride (which I would also not recommend for a newb) and that doesn't slow those of us down who're using that.

Also on some of these "mystery ingredients" you're looking at one manufacturer who lists the known impurities and others who just don't say anything but it's still in there. Pickling lime (kalk) is a good example for this. Mg and Sr are common impurities in calcium hydroxide, but only one manufacturer puts them on the label in any fashion. All this means is that (surprise!) it's safe to assume that all reagents have some degree of impurity.

You have to know what's significant about the impurities (if anything), not just what's in there. Outside of speculation I've never heard of a tank problem being associated to borates in actual reality.

IMO, a commercial product is the right way for "most people" to start out. Specifically I recommend Brightwell's Alkalin8.3 and Calcion. Their instructions and other detailed information on the bottle is the best because it is conducive to learning how to test and dose and understand what you are doing. Learning these things should absolutely be the name of the game for any newb getting into stony coral. And while online is a great resource, it's hairy trying to learn about dosing online for a newb. (Look at the unfortunate results so many people end up with at first.) FWIW, the best alternate brand (IMO) has no usage info at all - just the concentration data (which at least enables proper usage). Most of the rest have advice that is actually bad/harmful on the label. Not good at all for a newb, even if the ingredients are great.

Anyway, by the time the extra cost of the premixed reagents begin to be noticeable, the testing and dosing routine should be "old hat" and there will be enough understanding not to "be afraid" of mixing one's own dosing reagents. If you wanna bother with the mess - there are always the possibilities of waste when you mix your own and spoilage any time you buy in bulk - this would be the time. :) Personally I recommend adding kalk to your dosing routine and maxing our your water change schedule to cut your 2-part dosing down significantly prior to getting into DIY reagents. It's just a good way to do it.

-Matt

P.S. In case it helps anyone to know: I use anhydrous calcium chloride (road salt from the wholesale club) and Arm & Hammer as my two part. There is a orangy-red precipitate when I mix my 5 gallons of Calcium that I suspect (based on some reading) is some kind of borate. I do take measures to dose almost none of the precipitate, but I do nothing to remove it from the dosing reservoir. I do "magnesium maintenance" primarily through not-often-enough 20% water changes with Reef Crystals and a very occasional "bump up" using BRS Mag supplement. I would never start a newb out doing what I'm doing even though it's very inexpensive. :-)
 
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I think I look at it the other way. Newbs are correct in being afraid to make their own because they have no idea what they are doing yet. After all, one doesn't learn to drive by learning to make gasoline, right? ;-)

I'm not sure how prevalent borates are in the chems you are referring to (any specific example?) and I'm not sure how big a deal it is either, unless you happen to be "one of those people" who never do water changes. (Bad for newbs!) I will say that borate salts are the most common "contaminant" in DIY-grade Calcium Chloride (which I would also not recommend for a newb) and that doesn't slow those of us down who're using that.

Also on some of these "mystery ingredients" you're looking at one manufacturer who lists the known impurities and others who just don't say anything but it's still in there. Pickling lime (kalk) is a good example for this. Mg and Sr are common impurities in calcium hydroxide, but only one manufacturer puts them on the label in any fashion. All this means is that (surprise!) it's safe to assume that all reagents have some degree of impurity.

You have to know what's significant about the impurities (if anything), not just what's in there. Outside of speculation I've never heard of a tank problem being associated to borates in actual reality.

IMO, a commercial product is the right way for "most people" to start out. Specifically I recommend Brightwell's Alkalin8.3 and Calcion. Their instructions and other detailed information on the bottle is the best because it is conducive to learning how to test and dose and understand what you are doing. Learning these things should absolutely be the name of the game for any newb getting into stony coral. And while online is a great resource, it's hairy trying to learn about dosing online for a newb. (Look at the unfortunate results so many people end up with at first.) FWIW, the best alternate brand (IMO) has no usage info at all - just the concentration data (which at least enables proper usage). Most of the rest have advice that is actually bad/harmful on the label. Not good at all for a newb, even if the ingredients are great.

Anyway, by the time the extra cost of the premixed reagents begin to be noticeable, the testing and dosing routine should be "old hat" and there will be enough understanding not to "be afraid" of mixing one's own dosing reagents. If you wanna bother with the mess - there are always the possibilities of waste when you mix your own and spoilage any time you buy in bulk - this would be the time. :) Personally I recommend adding kalk to your dosing routine and maxing our your water change schedule to cut your 2-part dosing down significantly prior to getting into DIY reagents. It's just a good way to do it.

-Matt

P.S. In case it helps anyone to know: I use anhydrous calcium chloride (road salt from the wholesale club) and Arm & Hammer as my two part. There is a orangy-red precipitate when I mix my 5 gallons of Calcium that I suspect (based on some reading) is some kind of borate. I do take measures to dose almost none of the precipitate, but I do nothing to remove it from the dosing reservoir. I do "magnesium maintenance" primarily through not-often-enough 20% water changes with Reef Crystals and a very occasional "bump up" using BRS Mag supplement. I would never start a newb out doing what I'm doing even though it's very inexpensive. :-)

I think making your own supplements is more like making Kool-Aid than making gasoline. You put the powder in the water and stir it up. Nothing more to it than that unless your using soda ash then it's like baking cookies and mixing Kool-Aid. I don't think making your own gasoline is comparable.

Kent Super buffer DKH I believe is baking soda with added borate to supposedly boost pH. There's another brand (Seachem or Brightwell maybe I can't remember) that has a line of chemicals that say 8.3 on the bottle or something but all of them contain a pH booster, (borate I assume). I may not be a problem in a reef tank but the less I can have in there that I don't need the better. Some of those Kent supplements they sell at Petcos and Petsmarts have the ingredients listed on the back and there is copper and all sorts of other stuff in there. The bottle has a pretty coral or fish on the label so people think they need to add that to their tank. I have no idea if elevated borate is bad for a tank or not but I've never heard of anyone having to dose borate so I don't want it in my tank if it isn't needed. This is really the only source of detailed information I've read on Boron in a reef tank.
Chemistry And The Aquarium: Boron In A Reef Tank — Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

There's another product by Brightwell called Kalk+2 that is supposed to be kalkwasser plus magnesium. According to what I've read magnesium is insoluble in kalkwasser so how does Brightwell get it into their product?

I'm not a scientist, I don't know what's in these supplements or how the work. Unfortunately there is no way for most hobbyist to test the supplements in the bottles or what's in them. It's cheaper and easier for me to make my own and it's not complicated to do and it's a fraction of the cost of the bottled supplements. Even someone new to the hobby should have no trouble or mess making their own. My supplements come in boxes and containers and I have RO/DI at my disposal at all times. A funnel, container and a measuring cup is all that is needed. It takes me less than 5 minutes to mix up another gallon when needed.

It's just what I do and I understand everyone has a different way and should do what works for them and what they are comfortable with.
 
I would agree with Ritter that making DIY kalk is no big deal and anyone can easily do it and use it given that they spent the time reading and knowing their reef tank parameters. However I would also agree with Mcarrol that using a commercial product to learn how to dose with written instructions to follow is a safer and more user friendly until you get a good handle on the dosing regiment and basics


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Good points!

I'm terrible at making up analogies I guess. LOL Lemme see if I can make it worse. ;) The point of the gasoline example was that the process of making gasoline is wholly unrelated to the process of driving a car. So, I would never recommend a newb driver to get involved with making gasoline as a part of their learning to drive. (Even if it would save them money and even if it were not very difficult.) Likewise, the process of handling, mixing, etc doesn't help (and may complicate) the learning of testing/dosing and what the chemicals being dosed are all about. All in good time - first things first. That's all!

The kalk/pickling lime (e.g. Kalk +2) I mentioned in my last post. These are the natural "contaminants" that come from the mined lime itself. Do we want to be mad/suspicious at Brightwell for putting it on the label, or the rest of the brands for leaving it off? Personally I can't begrudge a company their marketing latitude if that's their worst "sin". And it doesn't change the product - the fact is that nobody doses kalk for the Sr or Mg content so to me it's not relevant. (If they did, they would have to dose "milky kalk" which practically nobody does.) And something strange I've noticed about pickling lime is that there are no stores around here, grocery or otherwise, that carry any lime. Not Mrs. Wages and not another brand. I have found no local, non-LFS sources for kalk and I'm in a major metro area! I pay about $16/pound instead of what should be $3-$4 per pound as a result. Thankfully the stuff lasts forever unlike two-part ingredients. Lastly, here's a good link that gives a little more perspective on the contaminants one may think they are avoiding, but in fact may not be able to avoid. Among other things, both foods and dosing chemicals are both addressed specifically. Interesting!

I think Superbuffer might actually be one of the the other products I was referring to above that actually have no good info or even misleading/bad info in the instructions. Probably no info on the concentration and instruction something like "Dose 5 mL per gallon once a week" or something equally lame-brained. Nothing about theory or method of testing - nothing useful or helpful.

Interesting quote from the Boron article linked in the post above (emphasis mine): "Another series of products that should contain boron are the two-part calcium and alkalinity supplements[...]" Of course that section is followed by a bunch of "we don't know much about Boron" statements as expected, but still interesting that it's true to the extent they mentioned.

Also, it's not that mixing chemicals is "hard". It's that someone who has no idea (yet) about testing or dosing doesn't really need to be worrying about something unrelated (measuring, handling, mixing etc) when they should be learning just the testing and dosing. If the newb is a genius and wants to do it all - no problem! But the truth of the matter is that many people end up with tanks in bad shape and even dead corals because they get excited about dosing and try to "do it" before they "learn it".

As far as material handling... Calcium is easy, but it's one of the exceptions. Baking soda doesn't usually cooperate with funnels too well and can puff up into clouds pretty easily, which is both a mess and a breathing hazard. Likewise for funnel and the Mg Chloride half of the dual component Magnesium. Same for kalk - it doesn't flow well but packs like baking soda but worse and has the same breathing hazard issue.

There are better ways to deal with these chemicals, but it takes time to figure those out and again I don't consider this a good way to divide the newb's attention when they should be learning the fundamentals of testing with their test kits and understanding what alkalinity is instead. This is already a tall order, especially the understanding alkalinity part, so there's no good reason IMO to rush these things.

-Matt
 
The kalk/pickling lime (e.g. Kalk +2) I mentioned in my last post. These are the natural "contaminants" that come from the mined lime itself. Do we want to be mad/suspicious at Brightwell for putting it on the label, or the rest of the brands for leaving it off? Personally I can't begrudge a company their marketing latitude if that's their worst "sin". And it doesn't change the product - the fact is that nobody doses kalk for the Sr or Mg content so to me it's not relevant. (If they did, they would have to dose "milky kalk" which practically nobody does.) And something strange I've noticed about pickling lime is that there are no stores around here, grocery or otherwise, that carry any lime. Not Mrs. Wages and not another brand. I have found no local, non-LFS sources for kalk and I'm in a major metro area! I pay about $16/pound instead of what should be $3-$4 per pound as a result.

The Brightwells is good example of products that we have no idea what's in it. Kalk does contain magnesium and strontium but precipitates out when mixed. It's considered a contaminant. Brightwell markets it as if it is somehow better than kalkwasser since it contains these elements. How can they get magnesium to mix into kalkwasser when no one else can? It's either milky kalk slurry that will precipitate out when added to your tank and add the other contaminants or it's not kalkwasser.

I do agree that anyone new to the hobby will zero knowledge of this should not be attempting to mix their own and dose but anyone comfortable with doing a bit of reading and attempting it themselves should have no problems doing so.

Our WalMart has Mrs. Wage but it's in an odd place. It's not in the food section it's by the small appliances. They have a little canning section set up there. I think It's $2-$3 per pound.
 
Oh you already said canning section lol. Yeah it's cheap and will do a whole lot of mixing.


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I do tend to stay away from Wallyworld, but my recollection is that they, like others, carry flavors (e.g. dill) of the pickling supplies but I've never seen plain lime for sale. Next time I do wind up there I'll check in the appliance section and maybe even ask someone who works there if possible. (Still working through the last pound of ESV lime I bought, so no rush.)

Worth a repeat: All chemicals we dose have "contaminants". Don't let that be too much of a buzzword since more thinking is required to know if there's really a concern or not. If you're using a commercial product and understand what you're doing (should be true in all cases), more than likely there's no real concern. If you're (like me) using road salt, for example, I think the situation bears a little more scrutiny.

As far as the marketing, I will just offer a quote to leaven the conversation and let the thread get back to the OP's topic directly. ;-)

"If you're thinking of going into Marketing or Advertising...." -Bill Hicks, Comedian
(Google for the video...grownups only. LOL.)

-Matt
 

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