Male Lyretail Anthias Disease

[Wunderboiy]

@Humblefish @ngoodermuth @melypr1985

I recently acquired a male lyretail anthias about 17 days ago. He is in QT with a flame angel, royal gamma, and melenarus wrasse. For the first two weeks he was a strong eater and always out and active. For the past 3-4 days he has been hiding in the pipes and sitting on the bottom with fins clamped, also is not coming out to eat. He has been treated for flukes and I started treating copper several days ago (have been slowly ramping it up, I am not at the full dose).

I am trying to decide if he might be a copper sensitive fish or coming down with a bacterial infection. Unfortunately I was not paying close enough attention to determine if this change in behavior was directly correlated to starting the copper treatment, but my gut feeling is that it was not.

He does appear to have white streaks on his body, but I believe those are stress marks. I could be wrong.

Appreciate your insights, pictures below:
Prior to this new behavior:


After:

 

[Maritimer]

What type of copper are you using?

The marks do look like stress-marks to me, but take that with a grain of Reef Crystals, as I've never kept lyretails.

~Bruce

 

[Wunderboiy]

What type of copper are you using?

The marks do look like stress-marks to me, but take that with a grain of Reef Crystals, as I've never kept lyretails.

~Bruce

Hi Bruce - I am using coppersafe, of which i've treated at least 10-12 fish with no problems. I accidentally posted this in the wrong thread so attempted to delete and make a new thread in disease. If you can help delete this and discuss there, that'd be great!

 

[Maritimer]

Coppersafe should be the milder form ... but you should also be aware that recent testing indicates that Coppersafe may be more highly concentrated than it should. Do not follow the bottle directions, but test, test, test, and ensure that your copper level hasn't risen higher than your fish can tolerate!

The Hannah Copper Tester seems to be the go-to for copper testing these days.

~Bruce

 

[Wunderboiy]

Coppersafe should be the milder form ... but you should also be aware that recent testing indicates that Coppersafe may be more highly concentrated than it should. Do not follow the bottle directions, but test, test, test, and ensure that your copper level hasn't risen higher than your fish can tolerate!

The Hannah Copper Tester seems to be the go-to for copper testing these days.

~Bruce

My current dose is at 1.25ml/gallon, which should be well within acceptable ranges as therapeutic doesn't hit until 1.6ml/gallon. However, I may do a full WC from the display tank tomorrow to remove all copper and see if that helps.

Also, do you think it would be possible for me to fill a 2-3 gallon container with non-copper saltwater, catch him and put him in there to determine if it's the copper? Or do you think that would be too stressful and likely not give me a result?

 

[Humblefish]

I think copper induced stress is likely here, as anthias are IME sensitive to most meds.

The other possibility is something bacterial is starting up: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bacterial-infections.191511/

 

[Maritimer]

Not sure on the 2-gallon copper-free test, and from what I'm given to understand, Coppersafe can be pretty wildly over-concentrated. If you can't get hold of a Hannah, at least grab an API test kit and make sure.

Here's a link to the thread where this tidbit of information was discovered: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/c...instruments-high-range-copper-checker.368943/

~Bruce

 

[Wunderboiy]

Not sure on the 2-gallon copper-free test, and from what I'm given to understand, Coppersafe can be pretty wildly over-concentrated. If you can't get hold of a Hannah, at least grab an API test kit and make sure.

Here's a link to the thread where this tidbit of information was discovered: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/c...instruments-high-range-copper-checker.368943/

~Bruce

I have API that i'll test with. However for the last 12-15 fish i've treated i've always gone by ml/gallon rule and never ran into issues.

 

[Wunderboiy]

I think copper induced stress is likely here, as anthias are IME sensitive to most meds.

The other possibility is something bacterial is starting up: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bacterial-infections.191511/

Thanks for the reply humble, and if it is copper induced what is your recommended action? I could do a full water change tomorrow to pull out the copper. There were no visible signs of ich, but I was proactively treating as I did not want to risk it with a powder blue & yellow tang in the DT. Would catching the anthias and putting him in a 1-2 gallon container without any copper be an at all useful test?

 

[Humblefish]

Thanks for the reply humble, and if it is copper induced what is your recommended action? I could do a full water change tomorrow to pull out the copper. There were no visible signs of ich, but I was proactively treating as I did not want to risk it with a powder blue & yellow tang in the DT. Would catching the anthias and putting him in a 1-2 gallon container without any copper be an at all useful test?

If he's stopped eating, I would pull him out of copper. But you'll need something more long-term than a 1-2 gallon container (10 gal aquarium perhaps?) to see if he'll bounce back.

 

[Wunderboiy]

If he's stopped eating, I would pull him out of copper. But you'll need something more long-term than a 1-2 gallon container (10 gal aquarium perhaps?) to see if he'll bounce back.

I think I'll just do a 100% water change in the current QT tomorrow with water from my DT and observe to see if he bounces back.

 

[Wunderboiy]

If he's stopped eating, I would pull him out of copper. But you'll need something more long-term than a 1-2 gallon container (10 gal aquarium perhaps?) to see if he'll bounce back.

I did about an 85-90% water change tonight, is it safe to assume that that will be enough to determine if he was copper sensitive or do I truly need to ensure 100% was removed?

 

[Humblefish]

I did about an 85-90% water change tonight, is it safe to assume that that will be enough to determine if he was copper sensitive or do I truly need to ensure 100% was removed?

A 85-90% WC should return him to normal if copper was causing the issue.

 

[Wunderboiy]

So after the water change last night he is doing the same thing. Just sitting on the bottom and not eating, color is slightly off from what I believe are stress marks.

I read in another thread that they can be known for intestinal worms and to perhaps try treating the qt with metroplex until he eats and then metro in the food?

 

[Wunderboiy]

So it's been about a week since he started the behavior. I did a water change, treated again with prazipro and metroplex, and did a freshwater dip. He still just continues to sit on the bottom, breathes normal, won't eat. Assuming it must be some sort of internal bacterial infection at this point? And if so, what's the best way to treat / is it worth attempting to treat after he hasn't ate in over a week?