Male Lyretail Anthias very odd behavior

SF_Ice · Dec 29, 2020

@Humblefish, @4FordFamily, @Jay Hemdal

Hey Guys and Gals,

I currently have a male Lyretail Anthias that I decided to move to QT about 5 days ago. The Anthias was in the DT for about 7-8 months prior to the odd behavior. For the last month or so the fish has been hiding, only coming out to eat, but only really moving along the sand bed to do so. He never moved more than a few inches from his hiding spot during feeding and returned to the spot immediately after. While eating, he would sometimes spit out food with no real rhyme or reason. Recently I noticed a bad case of Popeye so I moved to the QT and treated with Epsom Salts as I was fairly certain it was an injury not an infection. It was in the QT i noticed white poo and immediately treated the QT with GC and started feeding medicated food (mysis, small pellet, focus, selcon, and GC) per Humblefish recipe. He seems to "park" himself against the PVC in QT. He has stopped eating during observation, however there is no pile of uneaten food on the bottom of the tank. I'm assuming he is still eating just only when the food comes to him. I am preparing to do a large (90%-100%) W/C as the GC treatment is ending today(48hours, Redose,48 hours). During the process i have been using cycled Ceramic media from my DT sump in a AC110 HOB filter. The Popeye has turned slightly cloudy. Today he was sucked to the filter intake but still breathing fine and had strength to remove himself. I think it was helping him stay in one place. I gently removed him from the filter intake and he began a new swimming technique that i have never seen before (See Video below). His breathing seems relatively normal (~50 gill pulses/ minute) once he repositions himself in a "parked" position. I have a large array of medications on hand and I am prepared to treat. However, this behavior is not one that I have seen before and I'm struggling to identify a treatment path.

DT Parameters:
ammo: 0
Ites: 0
nitrates: ~16ppm Redsea
Po4: .05ppm Hanna
Calcium: 480ppm redsea
Mg: 1450ppm Aqua forest
ALK: 9.0 hanna
Salinity: 1.026 (calibration solution and Refractometer)
Temp: 78 +/- 1 degree

QT Parameters:
Ammo: 0
Ites: 0
Nitrates: ~5 red sea
Po4 : .03 hanna
Salinity: 1.025
Temp: 80degree

all water changes done with Fresh TM Pro salt and RODI water

I am readily checking this so I will be very active to responding. Thanks in advance.

Qasimja · Dec 29, 2020

im sorry to say but i dunno if that fish is gonna make it when they start swimming like that it usually spells out the end for them.

i recently had a square anthias that i had for a year just stop eating one day and start having white poo that went on for a month i was able to catch her and put her into QT but she lasted maybe another week she was just too weak im still not sure what happened to her but as ive been reading sometimes anthias die like this unexpectedly

I hope im wrong and yours makes it good luck

SF_Ice · Dec 29, 2020

@Qasimja I would agree. Whats weird to me is the strength and calmness of this Anthias once it finds itself not doing circles. It keep me optimistic and ready to fight with him.

Jay Hemdal · Dec 29, 2020

SF_Ice said:
@Qasimja I would agree. Whats weird to me is the strength and calmness of this Anthias once it finds itself not doing circles. It keep me optimistic and ready to fight with him.

That definitely seems neurologic. When a fish spins because it is moribund (dying) the motion is more listless and random. In this case, the fish has good strength, and is spinning in the same direction. There isn't any treatment for this. The cause could be a tumor, or it could be an infection from the popeye. Although rare, the changed behavior that you saw early one could have been a precursor to whatever is going on...like a tumor.

Jay

SF_Ice · Dec 29, 2020

Jay Hemdal said:
That definitely seems neurologic. When a fish spins because it is moribund (dying) the motion is more listless and random. In this case, the fish has good strength, and is spinning in the same direction. There isn't any treatment for this. The cause could be a tumor, or it could be an infection from the popeye. Although rare, the changed behavior that you saw early one could have been a precursor to whatever is going on...like a tumor.

Jay

Thanks @Jay Hemdal , I really appreciate the input. So is euthanasia the humane thing here? Or do you attempt to treat the possible infection. If so, whay would be your recommendation for treatment?

vetteguy53081 · Dec 29, 2020

Not sure if it crashed into something as they do startle easy, but looks like nervous system or swim bladder damage and As much as i hate to say, i'd be very surprised if it recovers

DVal · Dec 30, 2020

Any updates?

Jay Hemdal · Dec 30, 2020

SF_Ice said:
Thanks @Jay Hemdal , I really appreciate the input. So is euthanasia the humane thing here? Or do you attempt to treat the possible infection. If so, whay would be your recommendation for treatment?

You could try erythromycin (Maracyn 1) in a treatment tank, that is usually good for internal eye infections. The fish seems strong, so it should go for some time without food.
Jay

SF_Ice · Dec 31, 2020

The anthias is still a live and swimming circles. Gotta love the fight in him.

@Jay Hemdal, I have E.M. erythromycin, and I have Fritz Maracyn oxy. One better than another?

Jay Hemdal · Dec 31, 2020

E.M erythromycin would be the one to use I think.

Jay

SF_Ice · Jan 1, 2021

@Jay Hemdal so after the second dose of erythromycin the Anthias remains the same. Still strong. Still not obviously eating but definitely holding on. I've noticed that he is spending a large portion of his time on his back.

Any advice at this point? When do we as fish keepers question quality of life like we do other pets? Just want to make sure we are doong the right thing.

TIA

Jay Hemdal · Jan 2, 2021

SF_Ice said:
@Jay Hemdal so after the second dose of erythromycin the Anthias remains the same. Still strong. Still not obviously eating but definitely holding on. I've noticed that he is spending a large portion of his time on his back.

Any advice at this point? When do we as fish keepers question quality of life like we do other pets? Just want to make sure we are doong the right thing.

TIA

Antibiotics often take 5+ days to effect a cure, sometimes as long as 7 days. I can’t really advise you as to when euthanasia should be considered. Let me know if you do go that route and I’ll look up my alcohol euthanasia dose (unless you have Eugenol).
Jay

SF_Ice · Jan 2, 2021

Jay Hemdal said:
Antibiotics often take 5+ days to effect a cure, sometimes as long as 7 days. I can’t really advise you as to when euthanasia should be considered. Let me know if you do go that route and I’ll look up my alcohol euthanasia dose (unless you have Eugenol).
Jay

Sounds good. I will continue with this regimen and see how it plays out. He is alive this morning and still seems to have good strength. Today will be a 25% wc as per the directions. Then another 2 days of dosing.