Man made live rock or real live rock?

[Tuan’s Reef]

TBS doesn't require a cycle. Air freight over night fully submerged. You add it and are done. That simple.

I might just do that! i was thinking i could monitor it for a while to see what critters i'm dealing with before it going in.

 

[ruskimax]

Just so you're aware, the TBS will come covered in sponges that 100% die off in a week or two causing a spike in N and P, so they are not completely free from small cycles. I have some hanging out in a garbage can waiting to replace the rock in my display (reef saver, phosphate soaked, barely any coralline, one of my biggest regrets to have used). There was about a month period where the urchins that hitchhiked over were working overtime, wasn't measuring any levels but could tell by the film and hair algae formation. Now its just all purple-y goodness w no traces of nuisance algae, im assuming excess P was incorporated into tissues along w some N and the rest of the N leaving as N2 gas w time. Richard at TBS is a stand up guy w perhaps the most enviable job on earth.

 

[User1]

I might just do that! i was thinking i could monitor it for a while to see what critters i'm dealing with before it going in.

Yeah, you know what after I posted that I was thinking that is maybe what you meant. I was going to go back and edit then say of course unless you are isolating it to catch the main unwanted guests. You got the idea anyway

Sorry about that - I just focused or keyed on the cycle bit. My bad.

 

[specwar]

I did mine with a combo of live and man made. Substrate was a mix too - of 50/50 live. Different shapes/shades and speeds up cycling. Also if you have some "starter water or filter material" from another tank/curing tank that helps a lot.

 

[SALTY 75]

One thing i will say is after about 9-10 years man made rock starts to crack and crumble. real live rock doesnt

 

[Hemmdog]

When this question is asked, people typically only discuss the bacterial community of the rock. Any reasonably mature live rock will have a pretty good bacterial community. Any dry rock (whether artificial, mined, or real coral skeletons) will have effectively none.

What I dont think gets mentioned enough is the porosity of the rock. Almost all of the manmade and mined rock I've seen appears to be completely non-porous, with only a thin layer of cavities on the surface for bacteria to colonize.

I've broken up a lot of dry mined rock, live man-made rock (cultured in Fiji) and dry pukani. The difference in porousity is huge. Literally like the difference between a sponge and a brick. The point of live rock is to provide surface area for bacterial colonies. For these colonies to filter the water, they have to be in contact with the water. Coral skeletons have a network of cavities throughout. Manmade and mined rock are solid bricks. Based on these observations, I would bet money that 1 cubic inch of dead coral skeleton houses more bacteria than a cubic foot of dry rock.

This is not to say that I think artificial/mined rock hurts a tank somehow. I just think its absurdly ineffective relative to coral skeletons.

These days, if I'm gonna bother taking up space in the tank or sump with it, it had better be 100% dead coral skeleton. I don't care much if its "live", wet, or dry... but I'm done wasting space in my tank with what are effectively non-porous bricks.

+1 ! Well said!!
I would never waste space with man made or quarried “ancient reef” rock again. Very happy I got some Tonga branches and Fiji rock before it became more difficult to get.

 

[flsalty]

i thought they were man made rock dumped into the ocean

It's mined Florida rock. More porous than man made, but usually not as porous as something like pukani. I used to get my dry base rock from construction sites here in South Florida.

 

[Hemmdog]

That’s the real stuff. It’s costly and may (let’s not kid) will come with hitchhikers

This is what I should of started with . Highly recommended

That’s quarried rock.

 

[Retro Reefer]

I have set up tanks with just about every type of rock available and can say with 100% certainty that real ocean collected rock hitchhikers or not is superior to anything else.

My first real reef set up in the mid 80’s had 70lbs of Hawaiian rock a friend of mine personally collected, the diversity of life was mind boggling!

I have also used dry rock and more recently man made rock (real reef brand) in a couple Nanos, although I liked it ok those tanks never seemed to really thrive and I had many issues with dino’s And Cyanobacteria.

My new tank was set up a little over a year ago with ocean harvested rock from KP aquatics and has been running great! they lease a plot in the Keys where they grow out rock for a couple years before before collecting it to sell, I highly recommended it.

 

[Sparky88]

Portland cement, crushed coral, sand. All in equal parts is a good recipe for DIY rock. If you burry pvc couplings in it you can use pipe to make cool stacks.

 

[EMeyer]

Live Rock - Tampa Bay Saltwater Aquacultured Live Rock - Aquaculturing Process

Does anyone know if this rock would be porous?

Unfortunately its pretty dense. What I saw looked like quarried rock that had been aquacultured. Amazing, AMAZING growth on the surface of the rock. I'd like the life but not the rock.

Same for the recent 'aquacultured' stuff out of Fiji. Several vendors are carrying this and the surface life is amazing. I got live corals and sponges on mine. (Of course like all rock thats not shipped underwater all of that stuff died -- this is where TBS is far superior to every other supplier as far as I can tell). But underneath that surface... its literally non-porous cement with some shells and rubble mixed in.

I don't mean to downplay the value of surface life on LR. And this wet, live rock comes with a diverse and ready-to-go bacterial community. I'm only trying to call attention to the other important factor, porosity, which is sadly very low to nonexistent in most mined or manmade rock.

 

[Retro Reefer]

I'm only trying to call attention to the other important factor, porosity, which is sadly very low to nonexistent in most mined or manmade rock.

Although there may be different density’s mined rock is for the most part no different than rock in the ocean, it’s formed from corals and such and was originally underwater before the oceans receded.

 

[EMeyer]

OK, but what we're calling "live rock" isnt actually rock. Its dead coral skeletons. And that is a very different thing than mined rock. Literally the difference between a sponge and a brick.

 

[WMR]

You have 2 sides to a coin, with man made live rock, you may have a porosity issue & no biodiversity(bacteria, hitchhikers, etc), but some of it looks really nice. Some people prefer man made live rock, some don’t. Usually, you will get some hitchhikers off of other organisms you put in your tank or you can add them yourselves. Aquacultured live rock you get everything, the good, the bad, the ugly , it’s basically a miniature reef in itself, you will get some die off, to be expected, but it helps with your cycling time & the organisms you get in it is pretty cool. Back in the day, Florida collectors would just go out & collect it, It would have sps, pls, gorgonians, sponges & all things in between, it was nice. Some of the Fiji live rock initially had some of the same. Aquacultured live rock gets some lips on there( rose corals, gorgonians, etc.) by-catch as fish & game calls it, but not as much.

 

[PatW]

I have never used man made dry rock. But I understand from people who are knowledgeable that it is perfectly fine to use in a reef tank. I have seen DIY recipes for it. Given the fact that any substrate with a very fine porous nature will support the bacteria needed for a reef tank like ceramic balls, I don’t see any reason why it shouldn’t work. Also some of this stuff is rather pricey and well known in the industry. I doubt that they could sell it if it did not work.

 

[flsalty]

OK, but what we're calling "live rock" isnt actually rock. Its dead coral skeletons. And that is a very different thing than mined rock. Literally the difference between a sponge and a brick.

But that depends on where it's mined. Here in Florida the "rocks" are dead coral skeletons. They do vary as to how porous they are. I have some on my property which are very porous and full of holes. I've also had some straight out of the ocean that was much less porous, but it's not like granite or something.

 

[EMeyer]

This keeps coming up. I know that Florida limestone is partially derived from ancient dead corals, but after death those skeletons were crushed under the weight of the continent to turn them into limestone. It is not the same thing as coral skeletons. There are very very few holes in it. Its a solid brick of limestone. No its not chemically granite - but just as non porous.

Someone mentioned "they wouldnt sell it if it didnt work" -- define work. It wont harm your tank. Does anyone really imagine someone has run careful tests with proper controls confirming that mined rock is equally effective as dry coral skeletons? Or more effective than a brick of granite? I'm sorry to say thats not how this industry works -- someone found a cheap source of limestone and decided to start marketing it to reefers.

Tradeoffs, thats all I'm saying.

Real Pacific live rock (dead coral skeletons covered with living stuff) = the best in all ways, but basically impossible to find.
Dry Pukani: nice and porous but no life. Moderately expensive
Florida farmed rock: terribly non-porous but the life is great.
Mined dry rock or manmade rock: essentially non porous and no life. But costs the least

For me, I wont waste room on anything non porous. Everything gets covered with life eventually. Non orous rocks remain non-porous forever.

 

[flsalty]

This keeps coming up. I know that Florida limestone is partially derived from ancient dead corals, but after death those skeletons were crushed under the weight of the continent to turn them into limestone. It is not the same thing as coral skeletons. There are very very few holes in it. Its a solid brick of limestone. No its not chemically granite - but just as non porous.

Someone mentioned "they wouldnt sell it if it didnt work" -- define work. It wont harm your tank. Does anyone really imagine someone has run careful tests with proper controls confirming that mined rock is equally effective as dry coral skeletons? Or more effective than a brick of granite? I'm sorry to say thats not how this industry works -- someone found a cheap source of limestone and decided to start marketing it to reefers.

Tradeoffs, thats all I'm saying.

Real Pacific live rock (dead coral skeletons covered with living stuff) = the best in all ways, but basically impossible to find.
Dry Pukani: nice and porous but no life. Moderately expensive
Florida farmed rock: terribly non-porous but the life is great.
Mined dry rock or manmade rock: essentially non porous and no life. But costs the least

For me, I wont waste room on anything non porous. Everything gets covered with life eventually. Non orous rocks remain non-porous forever.

Limestone is actually quite porous, especially in Florida. Perhaps you are thinking of limestone from other places, like the midwest, which gets clogged up from minerals in the water. But to call it non-porous is incorrect. It is, however, more dense than pukani. About twice as dense.

 

[Silverfish]

Lots of good info for beginner reefers and valid points too. I find that those who hv dealt with invasive hitchhikers are proponents for life rock. Those that have not like the live rock. It’s a risk when it comes to live rock. Comes with diversity and quicker cycle but also maybe comes with the worst time of your reefing life.

 

[specwar]

Lots of good info for beginner reefers and valid points too. I find that those who hv dealt with invasive hitchhikers are proponents for life rock. Those that have not like the live rock. It’s a risk when it comes to live rock. Comes with diversity and quicker cycle but also maybe comes with the worst time of your reefing life.

That last line - Applies to dating too see how the world works?! LOL