Managing Po4 and No3

Treefer32 · Jun 15, 2019

I have a 350gallon display with 75 gallon sump. Total volume probably around 300 gallons. A few months ago I had 14 fish die (due to a bad heater). A majority of them died in the display and were never found in, under, rocks, etc. I didn't test nitrates or phosphates then, Hair algae grew in in the display rapidly. I also have a turf scrubber and I was removing a softball sized clump of hair algae every 4-5 days. It grew in so much it plugged the primary drain of the scrubber and was starting to grow into the backup drain by the 5th day. I religiously cleaned the screen every 4-5 days. Did 35 gallon water changes with 0 TDS water every 2 weeks and just maintained good husbandry. I replaced both of my heaters when I discovered the culprit and did the best I could to pull algae from the display.

I'm running carbon and Purigen just in media bags right now. The hair algae in the display is starting to die off finally - about 2 months since the last fish death. I have 3 fish in the display, I feed pretty light given the livestock.

I'm continuing to do the water changes, my corals are doing well. And remaining fish are healthy and doing good so far.

I tested nitrates yesterday before my water change and they were undetectable with Red Sea test kit.

I tested phosphates and they were detectable at .12 (Red Sea Test Kit). I assumed they'd be zero with all the algae I'm growing in the display... It'd be consuming it as fast as it's produced along with the scrubber.

So, my question now, is do I invest in a phosphate remover like Phosguard or GFO reactor for a couple months? Or do I need to dose nitrates to remove the phosphates?

Or do I just keep testing and see if the phosphates are in a decline with the water changes, less feeding, and removing what I can from the display and let the turf scrubber do its job?

I don't fully understand the relationship between Phosphates and nitrates, so, I'm open to suggestions if there's a way to keep these balanced. Or is .12 for phosphates o.k. and I just need to be patient.

I'm not wanting to do anything drastic. I was already debating if I just test every 2 weeks to make sure they're declining.

ReeferBud · Jun 15, 2019

I would just run some GFO until your phosphate reaches your desired level. I keep mine in the 0.03-0.06 range.

That’s probably easier than the other path you were considering.

Treefer32 · Jun 15, 2019

Thanks, I would need to buy a reactor though. $50-$60 plus GFO media. Close to an $80 + investment for a 2 month need (hopefully that's all).

SamsReef · Jun 15, 2019

That sounds about right. I would recommend using the two little fishies reactor(simple, cheap and lasts forever) and BRS high capacity GFO (Very low dust and it lasts for a very long time).

Sam

SamsReef · Jun 15, 2019

BTW, GFO is for the controlling phosphate export. In a mature tank, more often we end up dosing nitrate because everything takes up nitrate(love rock, sponges, corals, hair algae...).

I personally prefer to run slimmer part time to bring the nitrate up. Works like a charm.

So to maintain the balance, run less skimmer(nitrate up), feed fishes to keep the healthy and run good quality GFO(phosphate down).

Sam

mta_morrow · Jun 15, 2019

I would recommend for this instance running rowaphos.

It comes with a media bag for it and with strip phosphates faster than anything else out there.

Trust me that you will not need a reactor. Just hang the media bag in a filter sock.

You have to follow the instructions or you will strip it was to fast and bottom out, which you don’t want that either.

I will never use GFO again as it’s to expensive and requires a reactor to be efficient.

But GFO works also, so it’s still a good choice.

SamsReef · Jun 15, 2019

Couple of observations so that you has all the facts.

1) GFO without a reactor clumps up very fast. Large part is just wasted
2) without reactor, it a PITA to rinse GFO, especially rowaphos
3) with the reactor, I don’t even rinse...I just collect half a bucket and dump it out after changing the media. 2 gallon past, it’s all crystal clean

Sam

Treefer32 · Jun 16, 2019

Yeah, thinking of having a reactor. I spent a lot of money on the algae turf scrubber, is there a reason the scrubber wouldn't consume the phosphates that the algae in the display are consuming? Wouldn't between both; the display and the scrubber, the phosphates get consumed? Even if rocks / sand are leaching it? Eventually, if nothing significant is adding to the phosphates they would eventually run out? Right? I'm depending on the scrubber to remove phosphates and prevent blooms in the future. Or is there something I'm missing that a scrubber wouldn't be sufficient to remove phosphates. After spending $500 on a scrubber, I have a tough time spending $100+ on ongoing media like phosguard or gfo.

SPR1968 · Jun 16, 2019

All I would say is that running rhowaphos in a reactor and locking down phosphate to around 0.03ppm is the best single thing I have ever done to my system. It prevents many problems including unwanted algae etc.

It will work in a bag, but not very well, reactor is the best way by far

You may need to change it frequently to start as the phosphate is removed from the system (or it will become exhausted and stop working) but then the changes will be less frequent. I do mine about every 3-4 weeks

Also you don’t really want zero nitrate or other annoying problems can happen and a good target is around 10ppm

Rhowaphos does need rinsing, but in a reactor it’s easy you just add the rhowaphos and then run water through and put the output hose in a bucket.

Josh@ClearWaterScrubbers · Jun 16, 2019

Treefer32 said:
Yeah, thinking of having a reactor. I spent a lot of money on the algae turf scrubber, is there a reason the scrubber wouldn't consume the phosphates that the algae in the display are consuming? Wouldn't between both; the display and the scrubber, the phosphates get consumed? Even if rocks / sand are leaching it? Eventually, if nothing significant is adding to the phosphates they would eventually run out? Right? I'm depending on the scrubber to remove phosphates and prevent blooms in the future. Or is there something I'm missing that a scrubber wouldn't be sufficient to remove phosphates. After spending $500 on a scrubber, I have a tough time spending $100+ on ongoing media like phosguard or gfo.

If the redfield ratio of nitrates to phosphates is out of whack, the scrubber has a hard time consuming the PO4. You may need to dose some nitrates or increase your feeding to bring the ratio back into line. That will inturn increase growth of the algae and it will be able to consume more PO4.

Treefer32 · Jun 17, 2019

In researching what nitrates to dose, it looks like potassium Nitrate is the best way to go? Or Tree stump remover? Is there a dosing recipe of how much to mix in RODI to dose over time? I'd be fine doing this, I have a doser I could use, and it looks like the Potassium Nitrate is around $5 - 10 depending on how much I need. Seems like raising nitrates to remove phosphates would be the cheapest route to go. Raising them from 0 to 5-10 in 300 gallons of water might take some doing. Is it an excuse to get 20 more fish? Ha! I'm giving it a rest for a few months since the fish loss.

Veetz89 · Jun 17, 2019

SPR1968 said:
All I would say is that running rhowaphos in a reactor and locking down phosphate to around 0.03ppm is the best single thing I have ever done to my system. It prevents many problems including unwanted algae etc.

It will work in a bag, but not very well, reactor is the best way by far

You may need to change it frequently to start as the phosphate is removed from the system (or it will become exhausted and stop working) but then the changes will be less frequent. I do mine about every 3-4 weeks

Also you don’t really want zero nitrate or other annoying problems can happen and a good target is around 10ppm

Rhowaphos does need rinsing, but in a reactor it’s easy you just add the rhowaphos and then run water through and put the output hose in a bucket.

How much rowaphos do you use in a reactor? I bought the brs dual stage for carbon and rowaphos. Can I just fill it up halfway and change it out when its exhausted?

Richard Ivory · Jun 17, 2019

Veetz89 said:
How much rowaphos do you use in a reactor? I bought the brs dual stage for carbon and rowaphos. Can I just fill it up halfway and change it out when its exhausted?

it tells you in the instructions what to use per your tank volume and to have it tumbling too

NeedMoreReef · Jun 17, 2019

Treefer32 said:
In researching what nitrates to dose, it looks like potassium Nitrate is the best way to go? Or Tree stump remover? Is there a dosing recipe of how much to mix in RODI to dose over time? I'd be fine doing this, I have a doser I could use, and it looks like the Potassium Nitrate is around $5 - 10 depending on how much I need. Seems like raising nitrates to remove phosphates would be the cheapest route to go. Raising them from 0 to 5-10 in 300 gallons of water might take some doing. Is it an excuse to get 20 more fish? Ha! I'm giving it a rest for a few months since the fish loss.

you don't need to dose nitrate to have a great reef tank. your tank didn't go south because of a nitrate or phosphate issue. I think you were on the right track with water changes with zero TDS water and cleaning/harvesting algae from scrubber.
If you have a sand bed, you may consider swapping sections out with new arragonite each month, don't do all at once.

serwobow · Jun 17, 2019

I agree with not doing anything drastic. However, if you want to lower phosphates by increasing nitrates, try this: instead of dosing nitrates, simply stop or reduce the use of Purigen, which is effectively a nitrate remover.