Mandarin Dragonet without a refugium: would this work?

[679x]

Wondering if I could keep a Mandarin dragonet in a Reefer 250 (3 feet long, 54 gallons). I ask this because the Reefer 250 does not come with a refugium in the sump, and I don't plan on constructing and plumbing my own. And from what I understand, it's not very sustainable to rely solely on the population of copepods in your display tank (rather than refugium) to feed even a single dragonet over a long period of time, unless your tank is very large and/or well established.

So, in order to keep this fish, I planned on using a small old tank that I have laying around in order to culture copepods in, since I won't have a refugium to do it in. Then, every so often I can just take some water/copepods out of the tank, filter out the copepods, and put them into the display tank.

I was wondering whether this would be sufficient for a single Mandarin. I would hope that I could get one that eats more than just copepods, but I'm not going to take a risk and buy even one that is eating non-copepod foods at the location I get it from, without having any copepods to feed it, in case it doesn't eat other foods when it arrives in my tank.

Anyway, does this sound like it would work? If not, then I'll just have to pass on the Mandarin, unfortunately. Ever since I knew it existed, which was long before I even planned on getting a saltwater tank, I knew I wanted one eventually. As a result, I am willing to do extra work culturing copepods if it means I can safely and successfully keep a mandarin dragonet for the long term.

Thanks in advance.

 

[chefjpaul]

Look up the baby brine shrimp pages here as well.

 

[Best Fish-Jake]

How long has the tank been set up for? Preferably you'd find a mandarin that already eats frozen, but that's not always possible. You'll want to either culture, or purchase copepods to feed it because it will make quick work of your current population

 

[679x]

Oh boy! I just found out how expensive copepods are online.

How long has the tank been set up for? Preferably you'd find a mandarin that already eats frozen, but that's not always possible. You'll want to either culture, or purchase copepods to feed it because it will make quick work of your current population

I actually don't have a saltwater tank yet, but have been using this forum to help me plan and prepare. It's my hope that it'll be set up within the next few months.

I'd love to get a mandarin that already eats frozen/non-copepod foods, but I don't know where I can get something like that.

After seeing the price of getting copepods, I'm rethinking my plan. If I can find a captive bred mandarin in Canada, then I will get one. If I can find a 'standard' mandarin at a LFS (which I have), I will ask whether they will feed it. If they do, I'll be able to see whether it'll eat food like that and make a decision on whether I want to take it home.

I also read about creating a pile of rocks where fish can't fit, putting some copepods in there, and shooting food in there for them every once in a while. That way, the pod population can increase away from the dangers of hungry fish, and any pods that leave the safety of the rock pile will become food for the Mandarin. I don't know how well this idea works, if it works at all. I feel like it'll just be a big detritus trap, because you're shooting a bunch of food into a spot where no water movement can reach it. I guess maybe smaller members of a cleanup crew might be able to fit inside the rocks and clean it up, but I dunno, and I feel like that would end up being less beneficial for any pods that may or may not be surviving in there.

So in the end I think it's a matter of getting lucky and finding a mandarin that will eat well. I guess that's what I'm going to try to do, because I don't really want to spend lots of $ on some copepods. I would've been fine with the work involved with it, but not the cost after seeing how much copepods cost online.

 

[ngoodermuth]

Baby brine shrimp are cheaper than live pods, but not the same nutritionally. Ideally, if you culture your own pods you won't have to keep buying the pods regularly. Just every now and then to re-seed it if needed.

That said, I've tried mandarins in small tanks a couple of times and have had only moderate success. Even the one that ate frozen well didn't last very long... one day he just stopped eating it and that was it.

I wouldn't recommend one without least 70-80lbs of live rock and a fuge. It's a lot of work to provide live foods and only for marginal success.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Its an advanced fish. I would avoid it.

So in the end I think it's a matter of getting lucky and finding a mandarin that will eat well.

yes and no. you have to "train" it. So luck has little to do with it.

culturing etc etc, while also learning chemistry flow corals other fish can and will be overwhelming.

What I did from the start(I have always had mandarins) was make mine a mandarin tank. not an sps or softie or mixed reef. With that said I had a tough time with a scooter dragonet in a sumpless 30 gal 18 months old because of the food demands. I have 3 tanks..

 

[679x]

Its an advanced fish. I would avoid it.

yes and no. you have to "train" it. So luck has little to do with it.

culturing etc etc, while also learning chemistry flow corals other fish can and will be overwhelming.

What I did from the start(I have always had mandarins) was make mine a mandarin tank. not an sps or softie or mixed reef. With that said I had a tough time with a scooter dragonet in a sumpless 30 gal 18 months old because of the food demands. I have 3 tanks..

Maybe when I'm more experienced I will try it.

But, I'm considering modifying my Reefer's sump and adding a refugium, but I also wanted to have a jug (the kind with a valve thing) of RO water in the empty part of the sump so that I can easily refill the ATO reservoir, and when I run out of water I can just take out the jug and refill it, which I think is better than having to carry RO water across the house every few days. That jug will take up space, but I should still be able to fit the refugium. If I can, which I probably can, the bigger problem is that I don't know how to do the plumbing. I'll need to figure out how to connect the refugium to the sump. I'm thinking of using a T to put some water into the refugium, then having an overflow at the other end of the refugium tank that leads into the area where the water would've otherwise entered the sump? I don't know what the regular plumbing looks like since I don't have the tank, so I don't yet know how it should be done.

With all that being said, if I had a refugium growing copepods, which would dispense them into the tank all the time (rather than me 'harvesting' the pods and putting some in the tank every so often), do you think I would have a better chance of success keeping a Mandarin?

As I said before I am willing to do extra work for this fish. But I'm just going to have to pass on it if it still might not be enough.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I'll need to figure out how to connect the refugium to the sump.

overflow and pump.

f I had a refugium growing copepods, which would dispense them into the tank all the time (rather than me 'harvesting' the pods and putting some in the tank every so often),

I put rocks and chato from time to time from the fuge to the dt to this day. you also need keep an eye on the bug pop in the display.

IMO, get the tank going with all that stuff in mind. Plan for a goal. A super clean, young AMAZING ACRO w a huge skimmer tank at 9 months old probably wont be good for a mandarin. A mixed reef with a reasonable skimmer and a good refugium and higher nutrints might be. And some acros may do ok in there too. Mine do in the big tank.
Bugs are cockroaches, that means lots of extra food. The bugs are actually part of my cuc. I export the N/P from the food(and bug bacteria and fish waste), with the fuge. I also have 2 deep sand beds.

As always, keep reading. I try to avoid threads, always have, and read articles by experts and scientists. Then, check the facts and get opinions to back them up on forums.

 

[chefjpaul]

Keep researching.......and researching.

 

[679x]

Keep researching.......and researching.

Yep!! I've done a ton of research about fish, but there's still so much I have yet to learn!

overflow and pump.

I put rocks and chato from time to time from the fuge to the dt to this day. you also need keep an eye on the bug pop in the display.

IMO, get the tank going with all that stuff in mind. Plan for a goal. A super clean, young AMAZING ACRO w a huge skimmer tank at 9 months old probably wont be good for a mandarin. A mixed reef with a reasonable skimmer and a good refugium and higher nutrints might be. And some acros may do ok in there too. Mine do in the big tank.
Bugs are cockroaches, that means lots of extra food. The bugs are actually part of my cuc. I export the N/P from the food(and bug bacteria and fish waste), with the fuge. I also have 2 deep sand beds.

As always, keep reading. I try to avoid threads, always have, and read articles by experts and scientists. Then, check the facts and get opinions to back them up on forums.

Thanks for your help. I've got a lot of thinking yet to do. I think I might use forums a little TOO much for info lol

So, when you say "overflow and pump" in reference to my question about how to connect the refugium to the sump, do you mean having a pump inside the sump that puts water into the refugium, which then overflows back into the sump? If that is what you meant, where can I place the pump within the sump? Again, it's hard for me to figure this out on my own because I don't actually have a tank here to look at. I'll probably be taking a trip to the LFS soon, so I'll certainly check out the Reefer's sump and see how all the plumbing works when I'm there, because this particular LFS was the one I saw Red Sea tanks at.

I have also been considering a Ruby Red dragonet as well, and from reading on a few forums, I seem to have gathered that they may be easier to feed than mandarins? That may influence my pick on which of the dragonets to get.

Thanks again for all your help.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

t how to connect the refugium to the sump,

yup.

a Ruby Red dragonet

nope, just as hard. but eats quicker, but needs tiny broadcast food. Red scooter blenny, super fun happy fish in general, also a dragonette. Rubies are tiny tiny fish. I've had 4, one didn't eat, one overflow, 2 happily spawning in my tank, one I was such a rookie I dont even know what I did wrong.

I think I might use forums a little TOO much for info lol

it is good to get direction, and to find out where to look. In the olden days we called it, talking to people.

Reefers friend. Google Sumped aquarium.
https://www.google.com/search?q=sum...20&bih=950#tbm=isch&q=sumped+aquarium&imgrc=_

 

[Eva Rose]

You can breed copepods in a separate tank, as you mentioned. You may have seen this very article. It gives details on how to set up a copepod tank. See link below:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/2/breeder

 

[679x]

Ok, I think I have a plan.

I am going to get one of those little pumps and put it somewhere in the sump. It will pump a bit of water to the refugium, but not too much. The refugium will just be a bucket.

This bucket refugium will have a hole drilled near the top as an overflow, with a tube in it that leads down back into the sump. I'm assuming the copepods can handle being brought up to the display through a return pump.

I don't yet know where to put the pump that brings water to the refugium, but I'm thinking that to put water from the refugium into the sump, the refugium's overflow tube will lead to the area past the skimmer, so that the copepod water won't go into the skimmer. Would that be ok?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Ok, I think I have a plan.

I am going to get one of those little pumps and put it somewhere in the sump. It will pump a bit of water to the refugium, but not too much. The refugium will just be a bucket.

This bucket refugium will have a hole drilled near the top as an overflow, with a tube in it that leads down back into the sump. I'm assuming the copepods can handle being brought up to the display through a return pump.

I don't yet know where to put the pump that brings water to the refugium, but I'm thinking that to put water from the refugium into the sump, the refugium's overflow tube will lead to the area past the skimmer, so that the copepod water won't go into the skimmer. Would that be ok?

Yea but the thing is. As the tank ages and you treat it right it'll do waht you want it to with just a basic set up. You just need a tank with a big sump. The hardware easy an common.
One key truly is time and patience.

There's more nuances to it than that. It's about sculpting a biosphere most benifical to the animal your raising. I have the same stuff everybody elese has. Actually I have cheap crap. But I chose the correct components to do what I wanted or more correctly hoped I could make it do.

And it really is a pet. The whole tank.

I made a but ton of mistakes stuff broke stuff happened both good and bad I learned the tank and add a little of this and a little more of that. If I wrote down all the stuff I actually did to make it what I wanted it would be a really long boring book. I experimented with foods dosing bacteria and a LOT of totally off the wall stuff most would think.
But right now it kinda where I want it. And it's doing what I wanted it to do. So I'm lucky and it is the result of years of learning. The current tanks only over two years old. My first tank shop were awful and I scraped by and pretty close to crashed them more than a few times. When folks ask what's happened with thier coral, I know because I killed one the same way and know what it looks like.

So this is your first tank.

With the tools you'll have available and assuming the rest of the budget you need I woould really reccomend an easy mixed reef. With some of the cool and easy community fish. And try some coral. I would keep it neat and clean and easy to work on. Keep it simple. You'll have more success. Hard fish and hard coral are just that. Hard. Some even for the folks have done it. Your already going to have your hands full with the rest of the learning curve.

Here's the other magic thing about a reef. As it grows up and gets older it matures. That is a weird thing to describe to a newb. It just gets easier. Micro fauna become established. Lots of it. Pods worms sponges tunicates crabs shrimp. None of it you bought. Now for some reason that's benicfialnto certain species. Coral and invest and fish and makes it easier to keep them. But that is where it takes time and there's no rushing that.
.
It could be six months it could be a year, depending on how many times you crash the tank, but eventually the tank will be ready for a mandarin.

 

[Bdog4u2]

I've always had good success with Mandy's but I don't try and keep my tanks spotless and I'm a heavy feeder.
I've had mine for a few years and every spot you look at in my tank has pods crawling on it plus I have a massive amount of chaeto in my sump. the target mandarins are the easiest by far and in a small quarantine tank with no other fish in it you can get them to eat pellets with some patience. buying pods never works they can thrash a large order fast. I know I have one in my tank but in my opinion they should be left in the ocean and I got mine from my cousin and it was starving with its stomach sunk in and I knew there was plenty of food in my tank being around 15 years old with 280lbs of nice porous fiji rock.

 

[679x]

I've always had good success with Mandy's but I don't try and keep my tanks spotless and I'm a heavy feeder.
I've had mine for a few years and every spot you look at in my tank has pods crawling on it plus I have a massive amount of chaeto in my sump. the target mandarins are the easiest by far and in a small quarantine tank with no other fish in it you can get them to eat pellets with some patience. buying pods never works they can thrash a large order fast. I know I have one in my tank but in my opinion they should be left in the ocean and I got mine from my cousin and it was starving with its stomach sunk in and I knew there was plenty of food in my tank being around 15 years old with 280lbs of nice porous fiji rock.

Thanks for the reply. I'm definitely going to wait for my tank to become more mature when I get a mandarin. Especially since a mandarin might not end up even eating what you feed it. If/when I get a mandarin, I'll try to train it to eat the food I give it so that if successful, I'll be sure that it won't starve (unless it for some reason stops eating...) But I'll still be setting up this refugium if I decide I want to try a mandarin in the future. I feel like it'll be easier to set up a refugium before the tank has water, which is why I created this thread even before I have a tank.

Yea but the thing is. As the tank ages and you treat it right it'll do waht you want it to with just a basic set up. You just need a tank with a big sump. The hardware easy an common.
One key truly is time and patience.

There's more nuances to it than that. It's about sculpting a biosphere most benifical to the animal your raising. I have the same stuff everybody elese has. Actually I have cheap crap. But I chose the correct components to do what I wanted or more correctly hoped I could make it do.

And it really is a pet. The whole tank.

I made a but ton of mistakes stuff broke stuff happened both good and bad I learned the tank and add a little of this and a little more of that. If I wrote down all the stuff I actually did to make it what I wanted it would be a really long boring book. I experimented with foods dosing bacteria and a LOT of totally off the wall stuff most would think.
But right now it kinda where I want it. And it's doing what I wanted it to do. So I'm lucky and it is the result of years of learning. The current tanks only over two years old. My first tank shop were awful and I scraped by and pretty close to crashed them more than a few times. When folks ask what's happened with thier coral, I know because I killed one the same way and know what it looks like.

So this is your first tank.

With the tools you'll have available and assuming the rest of the budget you need I woould really reccomend an easy mixed reef. With some of the cool and easy community fish. And try some coral. I would keep it neat and clean and easy to work on. Keep it simple. You'll have more success. Hard fish and hard coral are just that. Hard. Some even for the folks have done it. Your already going to have your hands full with the rest of the learning curve.

Here's the other magic thing about a reef. As it grows up and gets older it matures. That is a weird thing to describe to a newb. It just gets easier. Micro fauna become established. Lots of it. Pods worms sponges tunicates crabs shrimp. None of it you bought. Now for some reason that's benicfialnto certain species. Coral and invest and fish and makes it easier to keep them. But that is where it takes time and there's no rushing that.
.
It could be six months it could be a year, depending on how many times you crash the tank, but eventually the tank will be ready for a mandarin.

Thanks for all your help. I think the only difficult fish I am thinking about is the mandarin. The rest of the fish are things like a single chromis, a clownfish or two, etc. and the mandarin will not be the first fish in the tank.

I still have some thinking to do about whether I want to try a dragonet, but as I said before I think it will be easier to set up the refugium before the tank has water in it, or at least before the tank has living creatures in it, just in case something goes wrong. And I think I'll only be setting up the refugium if I want to try a mandarin in the future.

Thanks again guys once I have the tank established and mature, after I have more experience with saltwater, and hopefully a time when I know how to keep a tank stable, that is probably the best time for me to try a mandarin.