Marine Ich and Temperature

[jeff williams]

I would make sure you obtain your cp from a RX like humblefish has mentioned time and time again dont use the stuff of eBay and keep dirrect light off the tank for best chances keep us informed if you try this let us know how it went

 

[Humblefish]

Seems, however, that using CP would be easier and idiot proof so long as pharma-grade product is used and dosed adequately. Have you personally used CP for such a short duration?

I actually have a lot more experience using CP than copper for the "10 day and transfer" method. 68 different fish that had either ich, velvet, brook or uronema and it worked every single time.

Two things to watch out for when using CP, however:

1. Obviously, the CP you are using must be pharmaceutical grade. But even "the good stuff" is susceptible to biofilm if a QT has been setup for more than 2-3 months: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/qt-and-biofilm.292878/
2. CP should not be used on Anthias, Wrasses or Hippo Tangs (until more testing can be done.) For these fish, you should always use copper instead. However, copper needs to be slowly raised (5-7 days) to therapeutic and this ramping up period has to be added to the 10 days. With CP, you can raise it to full therapeutic instantly.

I would believe cp would have just as much chance for error because light affects cp and there is no way for hobbyists have to measure it in the tank

FYI; light only degrades the powder itself. CP is safe from light degradation once dosed into water.

The only way (I know of) to test CP in water is via a spectrophotometer. A $10,000 piece of equipment. No colorimetric CP test exists as of yet.

 

[Crashjack]

I've been using this method but for 12-15 days at therapeutic levels. I then move fish straight to the display with a few minute stopover in a pitcher with display tank water. I'm also obsessive compulsive, and it is easier for me to maintain therapeutic levels for 12-15 days than 30+ due to my physical handicap. Also, I use a Sterallite container as a QT that sits on the ground (again due to my handicap). This makes observation pretty tough. I can tell whether or not fish are eating, but I can't really see their entire bodies, see them poop, and so forth. I always wait until fish have eaten for a few days before I start medications, which include two rounds of GC and therapeutic levels of CP or copper.

I got burned this last go-round by not being able to better observe my 3 harptail blennies during quarantine. I didn't see that the fish had intestinal parasites and just assumed their slowed eating and then one fish's lethargy was a result of GC treatment but then got worried I might have overdosed CP with a water change. When I got the fish into the DT on Tuesday, I saw stringy white poop right away. I had just started feeding the DT with medicated food due to realizing I had two fish with intestinal parasites, which turned out to be a blessing. Unfortunately, one of the harptails was dead the next morning. I haven't seen the second since yesterday, and the third appears to be coming around. Had I been able to better observe the fish in the QT, I would have treated for intestinal parasites with medicated food and likely wouldn't have lost the two fish.

 

[drstardust]

I've been using this method but for 12-15 days at therapeutic levels. I then move fish straight to the display with a few minute stopover in a pitcher with display tank water. I'm also obsessive compulsive, and it is easier for me to maintain therapeutic levels for 12-15 days than 30+ due to my physical handicap. Also, I use a Sterallite container as a QT that sits on the ground (again due to my handicap). This makes observation pretty tough. I can tell whether or not fish are eating, but I can't really see their entire bodies, see them poop, and so forth. I always wait until fish have eaten for a few days before I start medications, which include two rounds of GC and therapeutic levels of CP or copper.
I got burned this last go-round by not being able to better observe my 3 harptail blennies during quarantine. I didn't see that the fish had intestinal parasites and just assumed their slowed eating and then one fish's lethargy was a result of GC treatment but then got worried I might have overdosed CP with a water change. When I got the fish into the DT on Tuesday, I saw stringy white poop right away. I had just started feeding the DT with medicated food due to realizing I had two fish with intestinal parasites, which turned out to be a blessing. Unfortunately, one of the harptails was dead the next morning. I haven't seen the second since yesterday, and the third appears to be coming around. Had I been able to better observe the fish in the QT, I would have treated for intestinal parasites with medicated food and likely wouldn't have lost the two fish.

Thank you for sharing your experience and sorry to hear about the blenny. Hopefully the other ones can make it ok with the medicated food . I actually have a lawnmower who I've had for several years develop stringy white poop and emaciation earlier this week. I've been feeding the tank Focused Metroplex'd food. I haven't seen him in a day or so, so I'm a little worried he may not have made it :/

@Humblefish Oh wow I had no idea about the biofilm thing! That is really fascinating! My current QT has been up for about 9 months now. I've just been keeping one running constantly, doing a large water change after a round of treatment, running carbon/polyfilter/cuprisorb and leaving it fallow for 76 days before the next round. I guess it has no bearing on the copper treatments I do, but the prazi likely gets degraded more quickly. I suppose this could be an answer to the mystery of why I had flukes make it to my DT a couple of years back.

 

[Humblefish]

@Humblefish Oh wow I had no idea about the biofilm thing! That is really fascinating! My current QT has been up for about 9 months now. I've just been keeping one running constantly, doing a large water change after a round of treatment, running carbon/polyfilter/cuprisorb and leaving it fallow for 76 days before the next round. I guess it has no bearing on the copper treatments I do, but the prazi likely gets degraded more quickly. I suppose this could be an answer to the mystery of why I had flukes make it to my DT a couple of years back.

Any true medication (prazi, metro, antibiotics, etc.) can be degraded by biofilm. Copper is unaffected because it is technically a liquid poison. However, I recommend breaking down & sterilizing your QT every 2-3 months if prazi, metro, antibiotics, etc. are going to be used.

 

[Reefahholic]

I reached out to Dr. Colorni, who co-authored the article which established the "72 day rule" for ich. Here is my email to him:

Dear Sir,

I am writing to you regarding this article you co-authored back in 1997: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1018360323287

The part I have a question about is quoted below:

And also this section:

As I am sure you are aware, 72 days is an unusually long time to take for theronts to excyst from tomonts. In most other studies I've seen, 35 days was the longest time it took for theront release. Do you think the cooler 20C water temperature was directly responsible for the prolonged excystment period?

I am needing this information to help determine what might be the proper fallow period if a marine aquarium was infected with Cryptocaryon. I thought less than 72 days might be sufficient if the aquarium was being maintained at a more "reef-like temperature" of 25C, for example. Your expertise in this matter would be greatly appreciated.

Kind regards,
Bobby

Dr. Colorni graciously took the time to respond to me and his reply can be found below:

Dear Bobby,

Thank you for your (continuous) interest in my work.

Undoubtedly, low temperature slows down Cryptocaryon’s metabolism and thus lengthens its life cycle. Indeed 72 days were an exceptional period, but it occurred with the aid of antibiotics in a sterile flask. In nature (and in an aquarium), over more than two months, I would expect bacteria to “gnaw” on the tomont and eventually damage it.

In conclusion, a combination of “reef-like” temperature and non-aseptic conditions should make a quarantine period “less than 72 days”. How long such period should be presumed to be safe remains a difficult question. The bug has millions of years of evolution on its side...!

Sorry I can’t give you a more clear-cut answer.

Keep up the good work,

Angelo

**********************************************************************

Angelo Colorni, Ph.D., Senior Scientist
Retired ! Former Head, Dept. of Pathobiology

National Center for Mariculture
Israel Oceanographic and Limnological Research

- P.O.Box 1212, Eilat 88112, Israel

Research Website: www.ocean.org.il

**********************************************************************

Life is a whim of several billion cells to be you for a while.

Very interesting to say the least. Glad you contacted him to try and get some much needed clarification.

One thing I do wanna note is that a friend of mine, who has a very established tank, has never had any issues with ich. Now I not talking about because the fish are well fed or have already developed somewhat of an immunity. This is different because even new and unhealthy fish aren't affected. He and I both think we have an idea why.

He has one of the most healthy and lively deep sand-beds I've ever seen. The bed is just filled with life. We both believe that when the Protomont's fall off the fish and are crawling around down there...they are consumed by all the tiny critters and bacteria. Like Dr. Angelo put it....."GNAWED" to death. I think they are simply unable to produce the numbers needed to become a problem and eventually die off in a relatively short amount of time.

 

[Humblefish]

A possible explanation for why the "72 day variant" of Ich was so viable in 68F water: https://www.int-res.com/articles/dao/43/d043p211.pdf

ABSTRACT: An obligate parasite, Cryptocaryon irritans, which is responsible for the white spot disease of marine fish is known to develop in the temperature regime over 19°C. Recently, however, we found white spot disease of olive flounder Paralichthys olivaceus during winter at water temperatures ranging between 12 and 16°C in Korea. In the present study we isolated a C. irritans-like ciliate from the affected fish and investigated its reproductive characters to compare the newly found ciliate with typical C. irritans. The newly found ciliate had an additional process in the reproductive stage, characterized by a budding before palintomic division, and it showed a higher ability to carry out tomitogenesis at a low temperature (16°C) than at a high temperature (24°C). Nevertheless, the present ciliates still had much in common with typical C. irritans with respect to clinical, histopathological, and morphological characters, suggesting that it is a new strain of C. irritans, adapted to lower water temperature.

 

[zalick]

Bumping this up for others to read through.

I just read through this thread and found it very informative, especially the response by Dr. Colorni.

I wish we had definitive proof that the tomant stage has a much shorter maximum than 72 days under our reef conditions, especially at say 81 degrees in QT.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

There are some issues: Colorni's work was for his PhD thesis and does not seem to be available for review. The paper he wrote with Peter Burgess just cites his own thesis. In addition, Burgess was the editor for the journal that published the paper! That is a major conflict of interest.

So - in my opinion, there isn't any definitive proof that 72/76 days is a viable time frame for tropical aquarium fallow periods. I've used 45 days at 81 degrees for close to 40 years, it wasn't until I came to Reef2Reef that I even heard of this extended fallow period.

Jay

 

[zalick]

There are some issues: Colorni's work was for his PhD thesis and does not seem to be available for review. The paper he wrote with Peter Burgess just cites his own thesis. In addition, Burgess was the editor for the journal that published the paper! That is a major conflict of interest.

So - in my opinion, there isn't any definitive proof that 72/76 days is a viable time frame for tropical aquarium fallow periods. I've used 45 days at 81 degrees for close to 40 years, it wasn't until I came to Reef2Reef that I even heard of this extended fallow period.

Jay

I looked briefly at some of the other studies which mostly show an average life cycle of 6 - 8 days with outliers being a few weeks. It appears the 72 days would be at best well over 3 standard deviations from the mean, if not simply non-existent in the reef setting.

I know it's sacrilege to say this but I will no longer follow the "76 day rule". I feel very confident now following your guidelines of 45 days at 81 degrees. It appears from the published studies that 45 days will likely cover 100% of the life cycles we experience in our tanks at 81 degrees or higher, as proven by your first hand experience over the decades!

Thank you for the information!