Medical reef safe

BrunoSnow · Apr 28, 2017

I was reading some articles on the web and I read about 2 medical reef safe to cure crypto velvet and other diseases one is from polyp lab, polyp lab medic, and the other is from prodibio, prodibio spots & velvets, if this is true why do reefers continue using copper base medical, putting the fish in a higher level of stress in a qt tank or when the fish gets sick in a main tank transfer to a qt tank, and some of us cannot have a qt tank, also the fish could be dead from the cure from copper, if the dose is wrong or people don't flow the instructions correctly.
Is there anyone who have used any one of this, and if they have had good results in their main tank.
I would like to read your opinion on this matter.

Brew12 · Apr 28, 2017

BrunoSnow said:
I was reading some articles on the web and I read about 2 medical reef safe to cure crypto velvet and other diseases one is from polyp lab, polyp lab medic, and the other is from prodibio, prodibio spots & velvets, if this is true why do reefers continue using copper base medical, putting the fish in a higher level of stress in a qt tank or when the fish gets sick in a main tank transfer to a qt tank, and some of us cannot have a qt tank, also the fish could be dead from the cure from copper, if the dose is wrong or people don't flow the instructions correctly.
Is there anyone who have used any one of this, and if they have had good results in their main tank.
I would like to read your opinion on this matter.

I don't know much about the Prodibio product so I can't comment on that directly. The Polyp Lab Medic is something that I have high hopes for, but it raises some questions. Medic is an oxidizer and works very similarly to how hydrogen peroxide can be used to combat Ich. Unfortunately, there hasn't been nearly enough studies done to make this a reliable treatment. If you read the recommended treatment and compare it to the Cryptocaryon lifecycle it is obvious that it is not designed to completely eliminate the parasite. What it may be able to do is knock the parasite population back enough to allow the fish to recover and build a natural immunity. For some hobbyists, this may work great, especially those who have easier to care for species of fish and provide excellent water quality and nutrition. The downside is that some fish, especially individuals of some species of Tangs, may never build a strong natural immunity. You also risk being one stress event away from another outbreak.

I hope to see many more studies done to determine if a different dosing regimen can be used to completely eradicate Ich and Velvet. We just aren't there yet.

Humblefish · Apr 28, 2017

I know a lot of people who have tried every "reef safe ich cure" imaginable. These are friends & fellow reefers I know personally; we hang out, I go over to their house, etc. so I am intimately familiar with their tanks. And I gotta admit, some of these products seem to work for a long time to control ich and sometimes even velvet. After a year or so of not seeing any symptoms, even I started becoming a believer.

But then it never fails... I get the call (usually late one night). "Something" went wrong, all their fish are covered in white spots, dying, etc. Of course, I always do my very best to help them out, and usually after that experience they want to learn more about how to QT.

Now, was it a latent disease that was being suppressed and it suddenly sprang back to life? Or was it a new strain of ich/velvet that got introduced from their last un-QT'd fish? Most of the time a new addition does seem to be the catalyst. But if all it takes for everything to unravel is one new fish, what kind of security does that bottle of stuff really provide?

BrunoSnow · Apr 28, 2017

I have read both of the medic polyp lab is an oxidizer like #Brew12 said according to the site of the polyp lab only has effects on the larvae stage when they are in the water column, if you go there a lot of hobbyists talk wonders about the product, but has you now the cyst may be inactive for a few days so they talk in a treatment of 20 days that to me seems to be a way to try to fight that part of the stage of the parasites. The prodibio I think that is some sort of medical because at the end of the treatment you must use a component tho re-establish the beneficial bacteria from your system, also I read that someone that tried whit prodibio lost all of the fish but none of the sps and lps or their tridacna clam was affected, could be that the fishes ware so debilitated that was noting to do to save them, that imo copper is a bad thing but is the only thing that helps in some diseases, or better said if that works wy try to find something else... I think that we lost a lot of fish especially in this hobby because they die from the cure that we try to do to save them, a big part of the fish is wild caught so the disease may be in a hibernation form and the fish could survive in the wild but wen caught, the stress from a diferent habitat that is provided, then the shipping to the retailer then to the local fish store then to our tank the fish must be really healthy to handle all that, if there was a better way tho try to give them a better chance to survive I really think that isn't by medical copper base, I think that you can have a system free from disease but have to be sterilized first and the way is new medical like this two, that qt is the right way to do but has I said the hilness could be in hibernation on the fish you have a rough that causes stress in the new fish in you main system and the evil is released in your tank, what to do if you have a system of 100g or more...

Brew12 · Apr 28, 2017

BrunoSnow said:
but has you now the cyst may be inactive for a few days so they talk in a treatment of 20 days that to me seems to be a way to try to fight that part of the stage of the parasites

This is why I don't believe Medic has been researched enough. We know from scientific studies that at least one strain of Ich can survive in its cyst form for at least 72 days, and many will survive for over 20 days. So, while it will knock back the numbers of the parasite it can't eliminate it.

BrunoSnow said:
I think that we lost a lot of fish especially in this hobby because they die from the cure that we try to do to save them

I can't dispute that I have lost more fish trying to treat them proactively than I have from disease. The flip side is that these forums are full of people who have had their display tanks wiped out by disease because they don't treat proactively.

We need to always be looking for a better way. Part of the problem is that the ornamental fish industry profits greatly by people having to replace diseased fish that die. They don't have the motivation to devote resources to investigating fish health. Instead, we have to rely on commercial fish farmers to provide funding for research but that research is rarely targeted toward hobbyists.

Right now, copper is my preferred method because I cannot get chloroquine phosphate. There have been some studies done on using hydrogen peroxide to treat parasites but we don't have solid dosing or treatment information yet. There has been some research done showing metronidazole to be useful at combating Cryptocaryon but again, we don't know exactly how effective it is or what the best way to dose will be.

BrunoSnow · Apr 28, 2017

I am in this hobby at least for 30 years or so I started whit a gold fish in a bowl then over the years I have had every biotipe that you can imagine and I must say that the copper medicine that I used in those days nowadays is still used to the same disease is strange we don't evolve

Brew12 said:
Part of the problem is that the ornamental fish industry profits greatly by people having to replace diseased fish

In the 90s I have had a 10g reef for 5 years, unthinkable at the time whit a magnífica, a tubastrea reproducing like crazy in my tank, but life changes and a quit the hobby for some years, and I have had mine share of disasters cryptocarium was the last one I should now better but I trust in a lfs that said that the powder blue was qt and I knew that this specie is proper tho cary crypto ich velvet and much more nasty things, I put it in my tank and a few days later cryptocarium, lost all my fish, almost 2 years with out fish or coral just live rock last year I start again, whit corals first and fish last a few days ago I had my last fish a powder blue that was qt for over 70 days when it came from the lfs clean no spots noting, past a week first wite spot, I didn't use any medication I have a secret recepie I had garlic to mix frozen food (is no longer a secret... Daamm ... ;Hilarious) and feed the fish several times a day, the white spot disappeared in 3 days and the fish is fat like a pig, a few years ago I read something that makes sense we should be able to fight the disease inside out give tho the fish weapon tho get stronger and resistant tho all parasites and pathogens that may appear, and I think that our fault is doing exactly the opposite... We throw all the chemicals that we now that works, we don't give the time needed for the fish gain immunity, so when we try to do the better in the end maybe we are doing worst...

But in my country I could not find the brand polyp lab so I bought today prodibio in case something goes wrong with my powder blue ... just in case.

jeff williams · Apr 28, 2017

Using garlic to cure a parisite is really about as effective as a lot of so called reef safe crypto/ velvet products. What your seeing is the nature life cycle of the parisite (3 days no white spots on fish) the garlic I'm sure has a positive role the fish eat it they secrete it in there slime coat and it's probably like us using bug repellent, we spray are selfs with deet and most the pest stay away but occasionally we still get bite and the mosquito life cycle continues just at a lesser infestation. I've heard several well know members on r2r say there is no effective reef safe treatments (yet). The wholesalers and aquarium Med manufacturers are getting wealth off of fish disease and fish dying. Theres no loss on there part per say so until food fish growers start having losses there's no money to research. ornamental fish wholesalers aren't going to do fund it

BrunoSnow · Apr 29, 2017

jeff williams said:
Using garlic to cure a parisite is really about as effective as a lot of so called reef safe crypto/ velvet products. What your seeing is the nature life cycle of the parisite

I didn't say that the garlic cure anything, what I tried to say, was that giving to my fish a better diet made that he could by himself gain the strength to do so.
Some people are using reef safe treatments some whit great results other's good but the medical did what was supposed to do and didn't kill invertebrates, so maybe is soon because I believe this products are in the market for 3 years or so.

I agree in the rest of the post but, I believe that lfs are interested in healthier fish, not for the hobbyists but for themselves, because if the fish dye in their store they lose money, nowadays in this information era that we live in I don't believe that a hobbyists would bye a fish whit crypto from them or whit a hole in the fish body, so at the end is better for them to sell a good product, because this is an expensive hobby and lot of people get frustrated from the lost that they have and abandoned the hobby, so in a business perspective they have to gain by offering us hobbyists a better product, now if they have money to pay for investigation I believe not, but in a ambientalistas point of view some governments should be interested because if some species enter in the CITES endangered species the taxes from the business don't flow and less money in their pocket maybe then they realize the problem.
Food fish growers I would like to know what kind of drugs do they use, because they have to get profit don't care if the fish on your plate is good for your health or not...
So at the end the hobbyists is the guinea pig, whe test their products and see if they have any results

or if whe nuke our tank...

BrunoSnow · May 11, 2017

I bought prodibio and this is the ingredients of the medication, is there any chemist or pharmaceutical that can help and say if this is effective to treat velvet or ict?

Sry this is in Spanish.

Brew12 · May 11, 2017

BrunoSnow said:
nowadays in this information era that we live in I don't believe that a hobbyists would bye a fish whit crypto from them or whit a hole in the fish body

Unfortunately, many LFS's in the US are learning they can cheaply add low levels of copper in the water to hide any signs of Crypto or Velvet. It is enough to limit parasite reproduction but not enough to eradicate the parasite. They don't add more due to some fish being copper sensitive. It makes buying fish very deceptive.

BrunoSnow said:
a few years ago I read something that makes sense we should be able to fight the disease inside out give tho the fish weapon tho get stronger and resistant tho all parasites and pathogens that may appear, and I think that our fault is doing exactly the opposite...

There is a lot to this and I am fascinated by it. There are a few downsides to it that make it so it isn't going to work for everyone. Something needs to be done to artificially limit parasite concentrations in the water so a non-immune fish has time to develop an immunity prior to being killed by the parasite. Another issue is that not every fish has the same strength immune system. For instance, this is much more likely to be successful with Clownfish than with Hippo Tangs. Within a species you may find one Hippo Tang that will survive just fine using it's natural immunity however other individuals may never develop an immunity. One other problem is that you are a water quality issue away from a major breakout. The stress to the fish from a heater failure driving up water temperature can temporarily remove a fishes natural immunity. Many people learn they have unknowingly had Crypto hiding in their systems only to reveal itself when a piece of equipment fails or an aggressive fish is added to their systems. Low stress and good nutrition are both vital to try and make this work.

I don't speak or read Spanish but I am guessing this is Prodibio Spot and Velvet? If it is, the concept behind it is sound. This product is an oxidizing agent similar to Hydrogen Peroxide. We know that oxidizing agents will kill these parasites at certain points in their life cycle. I haven't seen anything conclusive if it will kill these parasites in their cyst forms. If it does not then you could potentially have parasites that formed a cyst before you started treatment and didn't hatch until you were done with the treatment.
I know that is a bit of a non answer, but I hope it helps.

BrunoSnow · May 11, 2017

Brew12 said:
Unfortunately, many LFS's in the US are and III the ng they can cheaply add low levels of copper in the water to hide any signs of Crypto or Velvet. It is enough to limit parasite reproduction but not enough to eradicate the parasite. They don't add more due to some fish being copper sensitive. It makes buying fish very deceptive.

Here in EU Portugal, the LFS that I know they use hypo salinity and UV to try to treat the fish, because copper as you say, not every fish can handle the treatment, but I think that copper is also used to hide crypto in some stores, imo not very smart because they lose new clients that would spend more money in long term, and there you have a huge market compared tho here.

Brew12 said:
There is a lot to this and I am fascinated by it. There are a few downsides to it that make it so it isn't going to work for everyone. Something needs to be done to artificially limit parasite concentrations in the water so a non-immune fish has time to develop an immunity prior to being killed by the parasite. Another issue is that not every fish has the same strength immune system. For instance, this is much more likely to be successful with Clownfish than with Hippo Tangs. Within a species you may find one Hippo Tang that will survive just fine using it's natural immunity however other individuals may never develop an immunity. One other problem is that you are a water quality issue away from a major breakout. The stress to the fish from a heater failure driving up water temperature can temporarily remove a fishes natural immunity. Many people learn they have unknowingly had Crypto hiding in their systems only to reveal itself when a piece of equipment fails or an aggressive fish is added to their systems. Low stress and good nutrition are both vital to try and make this work.

In my experience, has you know, powder blue is a crypto magnet, I try to treat one not using copper, just feeding him few times per day lots of frozen foods whit garlic, at that time I had the fish in my DT whit other fish that never get sick unfortunately the PB jumped from my aquarium and I can't now if he would be cured, but by reinforcing the food whit vitamins and a good diet none of the other get sick, could they be immune? I don't know for sure.

Brew12 said:
I don't speak or read Spanish but I am guessing this is Prodibio Spot and Velvet? If it is, the concept behind it is sound. This product is an oxidizing agent similar to Hydrogen Peroxide. We know that oxidizing agents will kill these parasites at certain points in their life cycle. I haven't seen anything conclusive if it will kill these parasites in their cyst forms. If it does not then you could potentially have parasites that formed a cyst before you started treatment and didn't hatch until you were done with the treatment.
I know that is a bit of a non answer, but I hope it helps.

You are right I missed that is prodibio spots & velvets, some ingredients are méthylène blue used in fresh water for a long time, and the other components I know some, but I would like to know if anyone thinks that this could be a reef safe medication and effective