Micro and nano bubble tank treatment

[Cruz_Arias]

What are you trying to kill with that alk

Nothing... LOL

We are using the calculator...

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Are you sure is not bubbles covering the probe? I mean, this is one of the potential causes, right?

We are using inline pH probes (insertion wells in pipe) not hobby grade pH probes.
In a pipe where you get constant water flow, you get no gas build up on the sensors.

Sensors are angled away from the direction of flow (to prevent build up on the sensing membrane)

 

[BlueCursor]

My amazon order should be here next week with my limewood airstone and my diaphragm air pump. I'm going to try this thing out so speak up with any requested before and after metrics. Here is what I have to offer to the experimentation:
100 Gal LPS/SPS tank
Daily 1% water changes so we don't have to worry about a 25-30% water change skewing parameters
Apex pH and ORB probe.
Hana Ca, Alk, and Phosphate photometer tester.
Hana Nitrate photometer tester.
AI Hydra 52 for lighting.
Tank has been up 2.5 years.

My target parameters (things are very stable):

• Ca 400-410 ppm
• Alk 130-135 ppm
• Mg 1300-1400 ppm
• Nitrate 2-3 ppm
• Phosphate 0.02-0.05 ppm
• Potassium 390-400 ppm
• Temp 78.6 winter, 78.8 summer.

Livestock:

• Fish
• Snails
• Cleaner shrimp
• Brittle star
• Urchins
• Rock anemone
• Tube anemone
• Zoas, Mushrooms
• Various LPS (folded brain, lepto, Duncan, Blasto Merletti, Favites, Flower Pot, Hammer, Symphyllia)
• Various SPS (Acroporas, Montiporas, Horn Coral, Stylophoras, Pavona). My SPS endeavor started about 6-9 months ago. Still learning on these, and they are young.

My skimmer runs 24/7 as a dry skim. Heavy output and have to clean it 1-2 times a week. I have no sock on the return to sump, but I have a sock on the refugium return to sump . This is just to make sure no macro algae pieces go into the sump.

Refugium with chaeto and Gracilaria, few snails that are slowly starving due to lack of algae (have to move more to my DT).

I use RO/DI water. RO filters get changed every 6 months except for RO membrane which gets changed once a year. DI changes when there is no more blue. I have 2 DI chambers so the 2nd chamber gets rotated to the 1st chamber and 2nds chamber gets new resin.

I run GAC and that return goes through my 100 micron sock before returning to sump. I don't run GFO unless there is a problem. Haven't had a problem in over 6 months.

My ORB tends to be in the 410-435 range. Not sure why it is higher than others report. Never really worried about it unless it changes drastically then I look for what is wrong.

My pH typically is 8.08 - 8.17. I need to calibrate my probe again because it has been a while, so this could be off.

My sump is in my basement and the rise is 16 feet from floor of my basement where the sump it to the top of my tank on the first floor. About 45 feet of run from pump to tank with 4 90 degree elbows.

I have no algae problem, except for diatoms (more below) in my tank so we won't be looking for a decrease in algae. Haven't add any since I abandoned 0 nitrate and 0 phosphate approach.

I have a diamond gobi so we won't be able to look at substrate changes. He keeps things turned over and clean.

I do have a diatom issue. Have to clean the glass 1-2 times a week or the brown film gets too much. I never have green film algae on the glass. I get some diatoms on my rock. I used to get a ton more when I used biopellets. Got rid of those about a year ago but diatoms continue. Not an issue, just wish they would finally go away.

I feed mostly frozen food and I feed well. Even my diamondback gobi has a fat tummy from eating the frozen food.

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I will take photos of coral before I start. I'll take subsequent photos at same time of day. My iPhone sucks at this, because of its poor white balance, but it's what I have.

I will take screen shots of pH and ORB graphs from Apex. Not sure what other metrics would be of benefit so speak up with ideas. I am not going to make my life hard for this though. I have spent thousands of dollars to make my tank automated and easy.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

I have a diamond gobi so we won't be able to look at substrate changes. He keeps things turned over and clean.

I do have a diatom issue. Have to clean the glass 1-2 times a week or the brown film gets too much. I never have green film algae on the glass. I get some diatoms on my rock. I used to get a ton more when I used biopellets. Got rid of those about a year ago but diatoms continue. Not an issue, just wish they would finally go away.

I feed mostly frozen food and I feed well. Even my diamondback gobi has a fat tummy from eating the frozen food.

I would look at your sand bed if it is visible...

Another hobbyist (who was able to produce very fine fine bubbles sent this to me to show how the sandbed became more "spongy" and better aerated.)
@Squamosa

 

[Cruz_Arias]

My amazon order should be here next week with my limewood airstone and my diaphragm air pump. I'm going to try this thing out so speak up with any requested before and after metrics.

Would like to request a new filter sock sampling (one day's worth) without bubbling first...
Then, would like to request a new filter sock sampling (one day's worth) with microscrubbing nanobubbles.

The Smaller and finer the bubbles the better... If your bubbles are breaching and popping the surface of the water excessively, the bubbles are too big...

Please consult with @Diesel on how we set up his limewood airstone to only generate the smallest bubbles.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

There was a question about volatiles and smells, etc.
There was a number of chemical manufacturing facilities publications that explained how CO2 was forced out of solution by diffusing clean CO2 scrubbed atmospheric air into a water purification system.

The gist was, dissolve (diffuse) as much (CCSAA) clean CO2 scrubbed atmospheric air to saturation to drive off unwanted gases including methane, H2S, and other rancid smelling gases.

The thought around this (I believe) is similar in keeping a computer server room slightly pressurized, through air conditioning, (0.5 to 1.5 inches wc) to prevent dust from being sucked into the room.

So if the aquarium (which can absorb gases from the environment) absorbs CO2 we would be able to "slightly pressurize" the water from being able to absorb the CO2 from the environment by pumping in and infusing the water with fresh atmospheric air.
This infusion of "atmospheric air" via the nanobubbles/microbubbles, forces out any gas out of solution.

That explains how bubbles will remove any gas, including those that smell, as I suggested, but not why the tank smells differently when the bubbles are not present. It may be as simple as other masking odors being removed, however, leaving the molecules that folks consider the fresh ocean smell.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

A while ago I had a lot of clay in my pond. I tried a lot of things to clear the water, but what ended up working was poly-fill.


As far as I know clay particles are negatively charged (right?), so would that also help to remove nanobubbles from the system?

Assuming no organics are bound to the bubbles, the bubbles are negatively charged at reef tank pH (and assuming they behave in seawater as they do in freshwater with a little salt at the same pH).

Different clays will be different, but Bentonite is mostly uncharged at pH 8:

http://www.eeer.org/upload/eer-8-4-222-7.pdf

 

[cb684]

Assuming no organics are bound to the bubbles, the bubbles are negatively charged at reef tank pH (and assuming they behave in seawater as they do in freshwater with a little salt at the same pH).

Different clays will be different, but Bentonite is mostly uncharged at pH 8:

http://www.eeer.org/upload/eer-8-4-222-7.pdf

Thanks.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

That explains how bubbles will remove any gas, including those that smell, as I suggested, but not why the tank smells differently when the bubbles are not present. It may be as simple as other masking odors being removed, however, leaving the molecules that folks consider the fresh ocean smell.

I was trying to explain it to the people that were following... I'm getting a ton of PM's asking how CO2 is being degassed... not a response to your post, Randy...

 

[ReefQueen]

Sorry it this has been answered already, but does it have to be a wood airstone as opposed to the white or blue ones you typically see at the LFS? If so what's the reason for only using wood? I would like to try this and have everything laying around except a wood airstone, I have a white one and I think a blue one.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Sorry it this has been answered already, but does it have to be a wood airstone as opposed to the white or blue ones you typically see at the LFS? If so what's the reason for only using wood? I would like to try this and have everything laying around except a wood airstone, I have a white one and I think a blue one.

We are using the limewood airstones because they are relatively cheap and does not require a high pressure pump.
For quick proof of concept and to assist people in trying this five dollar method was the best way to deliver the message that bubble size matters and additional O2 and floatation of detritus is beneficial.

Bubble size is being scrutinized primarily and the other unexpected results from these very tiny bubbles.

Nanos are what we are shooting for... but with the airstone we are calculating that we have maybe 5% nano generation and 95% micro...

 

[ReefQueen]

We are using the limewood airstones because they are relatively cheap and does not require a high pressure pump.
For quick proof of concept and to assist people in trying this five dollar method was the best way to deliver the message that bubble size matters and additional O2 and floatation of detritus is beneficial.

Bubble size is being scrutinized primarily and the other unexpected results from these very tiny bubbles.

Nanos are what we are shooting for... but with the airstone we are calculating that we have maybe 5% nano generation and 95% micro...

Ok, so the non wood airstones produce bigger bubbles right? Just want to make sure I'm reading that correctly, it's already been a long day lol. If that's the case do you think it would do any harm to use the other airstones until I can find/order a wooden one? Or should I just hold off until then?

 

[reef_ranch]

How are you calculating any nanobubbles? From the articles, it appears very difficult to create nanobubbles.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Ok, so the non wood airstones produce bigger bubbles right? Just want to make sure I'm reading that correctly, it's already been a long day lol. If that's the case do you think it would do any harm to use the other airstones until I can find/order a wooden one? Or should I just hold off until then?

Under non pressurized air source, yes the blue glass sintered air stones produce larger coarser bubbles... If you wanted, place your current coarse airstone in the overflow return (in the sump) to promote more degassing of unwanted gases.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

How are you calculating any nanobubbles? From the articles, it appears very difficult to create nanobubbles.

Calculations are based off of probability.
The more darts I have the better chance I hit a bullseye... correct?

So... if you have 1000 bubbles/minute, maybe 25 of them are small enough to be called "Nano"...
Out of the remaining bubbles, as it passes through the return pump impeller (another shearing point) I generate another 12 nanos from splitting a few of the thousand microbubbles.
And out of the 1000 original bubbles, another 12 or 13 are compressed and dissolves (like a freshwater planted tank CO2 Reactor) and shrinks the "micros into nanos" based on gas absorption. This occurs in the return pipe pushing against head pressure.

So we calculated based on probability of occurrences happening, and also seeing the reflection and refraction using a laser as shown in the film, that indeed, what THEY are calling nano, we also have.

 

[cb684]

Well... also, most of the nano bubbles will not scatter light so one would not expect to see increase of turbidity, but some of the larger (still nano: 0.8 micrometers or so) should still scatter light so it should be able to see an increase in turbidity even after some time once production of the bubble ceased. Unless I am reading the theory wrong. So, I believe that, although we cannot measure the size of bubbles we can have evidence that they are there.

 

[cb684]

I got a different nozzle from riverforest.com (BT-50) that should be able to produce nanobubbles under high pressure. For that I plan to use a washdown pump (6 gpm, 70psi) that I have. I am hoping it will work.

 

[reef_ranch]

Cruz, I'm not understanding on what basis you conclude that any nano bubbles are created by this method. Do you have any references to papers I can read that show nano bubbles being created by wood airstones and pump impellers?

Cb684, I'll be very interested in seeing what happens in your tank when you inject bubbles with that BT-50 under high pressure.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Cruz, I'm not understanding on what basis you conclude that any nano bubbles are created by this method. Do you have any references to papers I can read that show nano bubbles being created by wood airstones and pump impellers?

What is sooooo cool about cutting edge work and theories and science is that THERE IS REALLY NOTHING TO COPY FROM.
The reference papers is what I would like the hobby to embrace and co-author and pen...

The only thing we can do is test, document, test document, and publish...

There is no road... but only bits and pieces about nanobubbles and other applications they use it in...

Elegant Corals was proud to introduce it. Without my partners, I would have never documented this practice I take for granted on every system I set up...

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Cruz, I'm not understanding on what basis you conclude that any nano bubbles are created by this method. Do you have any references to papers I can read that show nano bubbles being created by wood airstones and pump impellers?

Cb684, I'll be very interested in seeing what happens in your tank when you inject bubbles with that BT-50 under high pressure.

Please... watch the video... shine a laser through your water horizontally after bubbling... and identify the number of fleck and twinkles of lights you see...